Balance System

[Jazcash]

This post is going to outline what I think would be a good way to get balance changes into BA. I'll try not to bias it but forgive me if it slips into that anywhere.

I'll start off by saying that regardless of whether or not you feel 7.4 changes were good or bad, I think most people will agree that the way it was released was not the best way to do it. There was some discussion between the BA devs and a small group of people that happened to be within easy communicative reach of the devs at the time, such as whoever happened to be on Mumble. After and during that, a few select players received messages from Beherith or others highlighting all the proposed changes for the upcoming release, myself included. I can't speak for others but I gave my own feedback on this, including two minor additions of my own balance suggestions. I didn't and still haven't received a reply or any sort to the PM or the minor balance changes I've posted on the forums multiple times. Even if my suggestions are silly, at least say so, I'd rather that than feel as if I'm just being completely ignored.

Anyway, more to the point, balance changes were ultimately decided by the BA dev team, most of whom I assume just let Niob do his thing without wanting to put their foot down. I have nothing against Niob, and I thank him hugely for all the bugfixes he implemented and the man hours he's put into 7.4. Now I've said that, I want to also make it clear that I completely disagree with the way the changes were implemented and released as a new BA version without any public warning or discussion prior to release.

I have lots of points I want to make regarding BA's setup and direction, but I fear if I make this post too long, it would simply be overlooked. So without further ado, here is my suggested setup for balancing BA.

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• A suitable system is setup that supports private discussion and public discussion. This could be achieved via many different formats such as Mantis or simply Sub-Forums and Forum groups and the like.

• A select number of perhaps a dozen or so BA players are chosen. The players would consist of experience from all types of background, old players, new players, 8v8 pros, 1v1 pros etc. Just a wide set of knowledge and experience across the board.

• Private section setup for BA devs
• Section setup which anybody can view, but only BA devs and the private group can post in
• Public section which anybody can post in.

• Any balance proposal threads must follow a specific format: The proposal must include the suggested change to a specific degree of balance (Not "bombers are op"), why you think the change is necessary, any alternatives to the change that you think might be viable. Whether or not this is the best format to follow doesn't matter, but there should be some sort of consistency between threads.

• When balance suggestions are made, a poll is attached in which only those with post rights in that thread can vote on. This poll would simply be used to gauge the general thoughts on the balance proposal and not as a specific number of how many people agree/disagree. Any replies to the proposal must also follow a specific format of your own views on the proposal, what you think it would achieve, your own alternatives and whether you voted for or against the change in the poll. Again, the format would simply be used as guidance and a measure of consistency, not a strict set of rules.

• After all/most the players in the group have had their say, the thread is opened to the public or another thread is created for the public on the same proposal. Once there is a general feel for the preferred decision on the proposal, BA devs should sum up the advantages/disadvantages for the change and only then, may they have their cake and eat it by ultimately deciding whether the change goes ahead or not. If the majority of the BA community are against a change proposed, but the devs go ahead with it anyway, the current BA dev team should be hastily executed and a new council should be elected

• Players who are not in the private group but consistently make thorough and well constructed balance posts in the public threads should be taken into consideration for the private group which is then decided upon by the devs or private group.

• If there are are big releases planned, they should be trailed between the private group and the devs before being publicly dished out.

• No more ninja changes, everything that is coming in new released should be released to the public at least one week before final release.

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Now, I'll be honest, most of this was just brainstormed by me. It's easy to agree/disagree with this system, and I could probably make improvements on it too. But ignoring that for the moment, I think it is absolutely vital that a proper balance system is implemented as the current system seems to consist of just doing whatever, whenever. There have been so many good suggestions over the years, a lot of which have been lost in huge BA Vx.x release threads which people rarely tend to re-read for good suggestions. A diamond is presented, lots of smelly fat people jump on it obscuring it from view.

What we play is ultimately decided by autohost owners which pretty much means it's a public game. Not a commercial game with a development studio and all decisions being made by the creators. For example, if the devs released a new version of BA giving all units infinite health, autohost owners simply wouldn't update. Therefore, it makes sense to balance for what people want, instead of the devs proposing what they want and asking a few people for feedback on it.

As I said, I could easily babble for ages on this and related issues, but then we'd just be going in circles. So please, get a proper, consistent system in place for balancing BA.

[HeavyLancer]

So the tl;dr version of this is:

• tell people what the next release will have before it comes out
• have a select group of playtesters for experimental changes to BA
• Set up a forum for the devs and playtesters to discuss changes, make it publicly viewable but not able to be posted in

amirite?

[Jazcash]

So the tl;dr version of this is:

• tell people what the next release will have before it comes out
• have a select group of playtesters for experimental changes to BA
• Set up a forum for the devs and playtesters to discuss changes, make it publicly viewable but not able to be posted in

amirite?

Pretty much. But that's just my idea, the main point I'm trying to get across is that some sort of system is needed, regardless of what specifically it is.

[momfreeek]

BA doesn't need another cook spoiling the broth.

idk

One leader with vision who is not afraid to make his changes despite all the bitching and moaning might be better than any "democratic" design-by-committee system. Just a thought..

[zwzsg]

Or, just include my code that let anybody rebalance the game anyway he wants from a free typing modoption, so that balance change can be decided in the battleroom and tested right away, instead of long release cycles or cumbersome never-used mutators. Of course it requires giving power back to the people, which I'm not sure the power that be will accept.

[Niobium]

Or, just include my code that let anybody rebalance the game anyway he wants from a free typing modoption, so that balance change can be decided in the battleroom and tested right away, instead of long release cycles or cumbersome never-used mutators. Of course it requires giving power back to the people, which I'm not sure the power that be will accept.

Got a link? Sounds like something that would keep the 1v1 players happy.

[zwzsg]

It's in KP 4.2. The file is \gamedata\ModifyStatistics.lua. It is called by my modified \gamedata\defs.lua. Also there's of course the extra entry in modinfo.lua.

• Added support to modify via modoptions almost any property of any Unit/Weapon/Feature

[HeavyLancer]

BA doesn't need another cook spoiling the broth.

idk

One leader with vision who is not afraid to make his changes despite all the bitching and moaning might be better than any "democratic" system. Just a thought..

At most you need two people perhaps - one to fix the bugs, and another to maintain gameplay balance and direction. Depending on the scale of the task this could be one person which was what TFC was essentially doing.
It's all about group dynamics. BA has two tasks which are both maintenance-oriented, so two people at the most are needed.

If you are going to make big changes, go make your own mod - it's not like the code for BA is squirrelled away inside a fortress of death or anything. Suggesting big changes to BA is bound only to decrease the signal-to-noise ratio of discussions, where 'signals' are unit stat tweaks and bug reports. It's a mod that is inherently conservative in nature.

[momfreeek]

Is this "conservative nature" inherent or is it just recent tradition?

Balanced Annihilation 5.5 is OUT

5.4 --> 5.5

Massivly increased Juggernauts HP
Increased Bantha's HP
Increased Razorback speed and dps
Viper and Pittbull DPS doubled
AK speed incresed
Increased Merl/Diplomat AoE and DPS
Doubled Tremor costs, well almost.
Doubled Krow's HP
Almost halved Liche's costs
Increased Banisher DPS
Added some lua widgets

Have Fun!

Haven't some of the biggest changes to balance in the last few years been incidental due to changes in the engine or independant widget development? Is it not necessary to allow more forward thinking changes if the big plan to change all models, smooth the learning curve and improve the whole experience is going to be successful?

Now back to BA bashing plx.

[dansan]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 1&start=20

[Wombat]

I think this is what Jazcash has a problem with, he wants things to be discussed with him specifically. At least that's the impression I got so far.

[Gota]

yeah this whole democratic thing worked great for CA....
Am i being sarcastic or not?
I think Triton should be boss of BA and decide on changes.

[momfreeek]

thought I'd do a little further digging:

5.4 --> 5.5
Viper and Pittbull DPS doubled

BA55/weapons/weapons.tdf

Code: Select all

[VIPERSABOT]
{
	reloadtime=1.6;
	[DAMAGE]
	{
		default=660;
 	}
}

1/1.6 * 660 = 412.5 DPS

ba742/units/corvipe.lua

Code: Select all

vipersabot = {
	reloadtime = 2,
	damage = {
		default = 825,
	}
}

1/2 * 825 = 412.5 DPS

So check that out. The last time viper DPS was tweaked was when Noize DOUBLED it 4 years ago. Does that really sound like carefully tweaked balancing that the smallest change would upset?

How did we get to the situation where this is considered a "major change":

IMO any major changes in BA such as "Should LLT fire over Arm Solar?" should be run past a select group of experienced BA players.

???

[Jazcash]

How did we get to the situation where this is considered a "major change":

You do realise that big balance changes like that had to be made at some point right?

[momfreeek]

so which of these?

a) its a freak coincidence that DOUBLING its DPS happened to make it perfectly balanced and it never needed tweaking

b) everything else got balanced around it. rather than tweaking DPS of the viper that just got doubled; hp of many other units were tweaked to balance it (and then all other weapons were rebalanced to balance hp changes).

c) in the long run players experimented and got used to its new stats. far from "unbalancing the game" doubling its DPS simply gave the unit a prominent role. The precise DPS value is not really important.

d) something else (please explain)

[Johannes]

a) its a freak coincidence that DOUBLING its DPS happened to make it perfectly balanced and it never needed tweaking

Actually it was tweaked many times since. c) seems the most accurate answer of these though.

[momfreeek]

TFC changed fire rate and damage once not so long ago. I remember it. he deliberately kept the DPS the same.

[Johannes]

The buildtime and e cost were also significantly upped, on separate patches.

[Manmax]

Well, these examples show unmistakably that although the changes that were made were significant to say the least, people were willing to continue playing just to see what these changes were bringing. Did people tell Noize to create his own mode because the changes were too radical?

I think we should follow the then spirit of not being scared of tweaking the game's parameters, sometimes in a heavy way, just to try.

Of course, players must be clearly informed of the upcoming tweaks, which could be done maybe via a summary of the change log highlighting main changes.

[momfreeek]

ppl bitched the same back then and noize ignored it:

How can you rationalize making 5.4 version releases before and not figuring out that certain units need to be tweaked so massively as to double and half massively gameplay relevant statistics such as DPS and HP?

I propose a similar system of bitching, ignoring and playing the game.