Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation - Page 2

Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

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SanadaUjiosan
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by SanadaUjiosan »

knorke wrote:Also it will be interessting what other games will look like in some time ie conflict terra. CT usually has more shifting because almost everything is mobile and resources are not unlimited.
But even there you get the divided map thing at least in this quite old game:
http://knorke.darkstars.co.uk/battlerep ... g.txt.html
ok, that is some pretty old game and not yet balanced etc. Tbh do not know what it would look like now.
What snoop has noticed about our games is that "people like going in circles." We feel CT plays best in maps with somewhat circular dispositions. CT_Tumblebrush_Basin is a great example, it is my personal favorite to play CT on.

We've actually noticed, much to our annoyance, that CT sort of breaks in a team game scenario (breaks in that we feel it is a better FFA game), just because the chances of both "sides" getting equal rock distribution is slim. One team will always get more rocks, and at that point they will more than likely win. Our game pretty much debunks what this thread has been saying, but only because of our unusual resource system. So I guess its more of an exception.

It would indeed be neat to see what your Demonaut thing says about "current CT" knorke.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by PicassoCT »

i dont touch your base, you dont touch my base, we play petting war, that is the nub way.


Also Disserters will be shot!
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hunterw
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by hunterw »

knorke wrote: but with an old version... atm only found this one uploaded, I'll just asume it is as good as any other:
Image
Right, so here's why Talus is neat.

You've drawn a red line for green team there in the middle of the map, but that's not where red team has advanced to.

Red team has quite noobishly porced off without advancing to middle. This leaves big holes for assault against both him and his grey ally which I've pointed out:

Image

Furthermore, since grey team has pushed past halfway, he has access to two kbot routes that push past green and olive's fronts. I've drawn these as well. Utilizing the vag, it is possible to strike deep at the heart of enemy bases with only a few kbots slipping past the line.

This is why the fronts shift; one front can break or be non-existent which opens up many other routes and chokes. Those can be sealed with new porcs (as olive team tried to do there up in the northeast without success). Grey or Red may have had to do this if they were attacked by green using the suggested routes. Instead, it seems green just sent all his units to yellow's front line for the entire game.
Last edited by hunterw on 01 May 2011, 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
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scifi
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by scifi »

knorke wrote:no.

Code: Select all

if startpositions = "!split v" or starpositions = "split h" then noobgame=true

XD epic


better yet but just in "C"

while (newnoobs > pros)
{
pros--;
goodgames--;
failgame++;
newnoobs++;
}
you need more pros than noobs to make a game memorable.
But you can do it like starcraft, have the main pro game, and the few fun custom games set apart, that can be played.

For example i dont mind not knowing how to play a game, but i do mind if there isnt any chalenge or isentivation to improve.
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knorke
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by knorke »

Red team has quite noobishly porced off without advancing to middle.
sorry i did not notice that i had the median filtering thing too strong, it deleted "too much" of red player because he his dots were so spread out. (read on why)

if you look at the original image at:

http://knorke.net23.net/battlereports/T ... g.txt.html

you see that red did advance to the front like the other players.
There are 3 turrets (the yellow diamond shapes) at his front so I think he just made some def there and then went air.
The red dots all over the map are typical for an air player.

<searches hdd for gameID>
found it:

<17408>[UnitStatus]posx=<624> posy=<349> posz=<4224>name=<armap> humanName=<Aircraft Plant>) health=<1850> weapons.n=<0> type=<Factory> isCommander=<false> Team=<0> SelfDTime=<0> UnitHealth=<54> unit_owner_name=<[PiRO]MaN> metalCost=<850> iconType =<square_x.user> uID=<3909>

Frame 17408 is about 9 min into the game so he started kbot but then changed to air quickly.
Probally bombers or gunships, fighters leave characteristic loops on their patrol routes and I dont see these here (see the blue bend game for example)

So even if he was not very "present" at his front, it appearently was enough to keep the enemy from trying to attack as there are only 2 red dots in the upper image (red dot=destroyed unit)
Sadly the images do not show the type of units ie a llt looks the same as HLT or guardian. Maybe some early LLTs and bad scouting scared them off or green was just busy with ie yellow.
This is why the fronts shift; one front can break or be non-existent which opens up many other routes and chokes. Those can be sealed with new porcs (as olive team tried to do there up in the northeast without success).
Yes looks like this to me too.
It still is a pretty linear movement though.
Instead, it seems green just sent all his units to yellow's front line for the entire game.
I think players not always being aware of the whole game plays a huge role how things play out, yes.

for some reasons these graphics are more insteressting then the ones i should be working on :roll:
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PicassoCT
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by PicassoCT »

so basically all a nub wants, is to be left alone, in his average base, having a arena, were he can go once he feels ready. Or not even do that. Just porc in, trying to built a supergun, to exterminate other players from a safe distance. So what he wants, is basically the singleplayer experience, with people on the other side, who might be a little bit anoyed after standing around for a hour, to be pwned.

I basically solved that issue, by handing the journeyman there geohive- a building which, once built, spawns basically endless dota like creeps, generating a constant battle impression (bugs, endless waves of them, running into your sentrynells and efence to be turned to cinder)

But that would be really unfair to the pros, if they couldnt draw advantage from this lack of skillz (i cant tie both of there hands to there backs-) which is why, there are all those intricate little mechanism to circle around the spawned waves. (shroudshrikes/ terraforming(drownsyndrom anyone?), the baitbuildings (which convert the creeps into centrailcurrency) and finally the viralfactory (which is basically building of covertopunits in the enemy base).. so

If you got pro||nub appeal problems i feel bad for you son. Ive got 99 problems, but thos aint one.

You can cut this messages out, collect them, and if you have over 9000 post them on 4chan, to get a free trollercoasterride.
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knorke
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by knorke »

so basically all a nub wants, is to be left alone, in his average base, having a arena, were he can go once he feels ready. Or not even do that.
basically yes.
funfact:
In starcraft there was a custom map: builders & fighters.
Played by 2 fighter players and 2 builder players. (i think also a version for 2 players where the fighters are AI)

so map has 2 "builder" areas, nothing can enter or leave.
Any unit that the builder sends into a portal thing is given to the "fighter" and teleported in an arena in the middle of map.
Fighters fight in arena but can not get to the builder areas.
hooray4gay.

But noobness is just one factor that leads to the linear strategy of ba team games.
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KaiserJ
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by KaiserJ »

my design with frozen fortress was to attempt to squash these conflict lines without making the whole map impassible

definitely not perfect, but its at least more varied than some others i enjoy

problem with RTS with many units is that distance becomes extremely important; sometimes a wise flanking maneuver is passed over in favor of a frontal assault simple because the flank will take too long

idk

interesting stuff to think about though
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knorke
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by knorke »

my design with frozen fortress was to a ... impassible

Image

well, i dunno.
id say you fail (but thanks for trying)
problem with RTS with many units is that distance becomes extremely important; sometimes a wise flanking maneuver is passed over in favor of a frontal assault simple because the flank will take too long
yes.
I always read "big maps are more strategic blabla" but where is the strategy if 80% of the map is just used for driving towards an narrow arena stripe in the middle?
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scifi
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by scifi »

knorke wrote:my design with frozen fortress was to a ... impassible

Image

well, i dunno.
id say you fail (but thanks for trying)
problem with RTS with many units is that distance becomes extremely important; sometimes a wise flanking maneuver is passed over in favor of a frontal assault simple because the flank will take too long
yes.
I always read "big maps are more strategic blabla" but where is the strategy if 80% of the map is just used for driving towards an narrow arena stripe in the middle?


Bigger maps are more fun if played correctly, like micro manage a huge amount of scouts and expantions, in maps like CCR or even bigger ones. If played correctly it doesnt become a Porc fest.

But i can agree that smaler maps can have the same strategic value, neither type of maps nullify theyr purpose, its diferent gameplay, both fun and both are valued.

Perhaps what we could do is arrange some online bots that played with people in the lobby, and start with a welcoming message
" GL & HF" and in the end "gg".

made some stuff and be fairly good at it, then it would leave the lobby, this way people wouldnt know it was a AI at all XD.

these would play diferent mods, and maybe it could give people a chance to play diferent stuff at any time of the day.

it must be a good Ai though a dam good one, capable of team work e.t.c., who would code that.
luckywaldo7
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Knorke, I still am not seeing where you are going with this. Where exactly should your units be going? If what you are seeing on these maps is bad, what would something good look like?
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knorke
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by knorke »

originally my point was that hunterw wrote that noobs like some maps (ie dsd) because of their linear nature:
1. The linear nature of these maps forces conflict in an obvious, single front.
I say, all BA team games are of a very linear nature, no matter what the map.
I see no (or little) difference in strategy between "noob maps" and "pro maps"
So I think DSD is not popular because it is "more linear" then other maps, like hunterw seems to think.
It just was at the right place at the right time.
If what you are seeing on these maps is bad, what would something good look like?
see my post with the
So how could maps make games more unpredictable? part.
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Johannes
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by Johannes »

knorke wrote:
While the average front on Comet Catcher in your images are visible, there's plenty of space to flank and attack.
But shouldnt it look like this then:

Image
No it shouldn't look like that, that's just random patterns moving quite independent of each other. In a real game you've got troops maneuvering against each other, striving for a good position, not moving on a set path unopposed.

And don't focus on the images so much. They don't tell the actual threats and thought processes that go on in the game. Early game movement gets totally lost in them due to lategame armies having much bigger volume, and early game is often has the most dynamic maneuvering, especially on Blue Bend which is defined by the choke points in the middle - once you reach them it's easy to secure a rigid frontline, but not before that. Compare to DSD which has you push along 2 simple lanes for the whole game, and being pushed back on this lane doesn't open new attack routes.
And you dismiss the dots in the sides much too easily, they are often the game changing stuff just as much as the roughly equal armies keeping check of each other in the middle. Oh and there will ALWAYS be a big line from base to middle, just cause that's the only sensible place to set fac rally point 90% of time.

But sure, even on CCR the game can look pretty straightforward (though I don't really approve of turning this into this, don't try that hard to prove your point) like in the one you made that pic of. That's just a single example though, look at the other one you linked and it's all over the map. But that's good - it means there's a very wide range of ways a game can go on that map. But even in that straightforward game there is action all over the map, which means not just more multitasking but more stuff to consider into your strategy.



It's true though that when there's more people in a game, it becomes more static by nature, but not to the extent you think it does, unless the players themselves play staticly too, which requires less coordination. Saying that a Talus game and a DSD game are very similar, is just taking it way too far. There's always more ways to attack on Talus. Yes, BA isn't a game where big armies very often drive around enemy territory, but instead it's a game where even 1 ak in the right place can do significant damage. And that sneaking ak has much better chance to find a good target on Talus than DSD. And if it's stopped, it was stopped because the opponent used his resources toward stopping these bitches.


And it's hard to say if that red line analysis of the Talus game is quite correct, without seeing the game. There was quite a bit of movement and casualties outside those redline zones, and it was a pretty short game so not enough time for very many battles. Because of wrecks, battles are often fought over the same spot repeatedly, but doesn't mean those spots would be predetermined.




About DSD, the special thing about it is not just having narrow lanes though - but that there's so little resources in those lanes. So it doesn't give that much benefit to push along it (especially in the south basin) unless you can break your way all the way through. Changing this wouldn't change the simple frontline forming though, if anything it'd force people to invest more into armies to control them.


And unpredictable is a bad word to use I think, for what you want in maps. Unpredictable is bad, it means yuo cannot properly know what will happen -> leaves things to luck. Instead there should be a wide variety of strategies that you CAN predict and adapt to.

/walloftext
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Wombat
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by Wombat »

lol@pic, naughty knorke
luckywaldo7
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by luckywaldo7 »

knorke wrote:So how could maps make games more unpredictable?
I think it would be different if the resources were more concentrated in fewer areas. (think starcraft) Then you would have satelite bases and movement/shifting front lines between those.
Now you usually have one obvious front line and if this line is breached, everything streams through it. (see the blue bend image and the blue stream through the lower choke)
Ah yeah I see where you are going with this. Unfotunately this is nothing you can change with maps. It is the nature of BA. Comparing to Starcraft, expansion is cheap and fast. Even if you have clusters of mex spots, you will still see unit push to whatever expansions are most central, and porc lines there.

And it's not nearly as easy as "make mex more expensive then". Changing something as fundamental as the mex drastically changes the balance of the game. You will see a huge increase in defensive play even in 1v1.

Not to mention, what on earth do you find unpredictable about Starcraft 2 maps? You have a starting base, then a natural, and then usually a closest third, or possibly you have two choices for your third. Then maybe one or two choices for your nearest fourth. Unless you are going for a secret expansion, it is just about as linear as you can get. The only unpredicatability is when there is several possible starting locations for your opponent, but even then you will scout them in first few minutes.
More varied startpositions instead of left box vs right box would help too.
Yes please! I love what FlorisXIV has done with his Hide and Seek and Island Test maps, how the start positions are out farther to the center of the map instead of at the edges, so it is easier to get behind and around them. Of course, quite a few maps are compatible with different start boxes, if players are creative enough.
Also it will be interessting what other games will look like in some time ie conflict terra. CT usually has more shifting because almost everything is mobile and resources are not unlimited.
But even there you get the divided map thing at least in this quite old game:
http://knorke.darkstars.co.uk/battlerep ... g.txt.html
ok, that is some pretty old game and not yet balanced etc. Tbh do not know what it would look like now.
I still don't know what you are looking for with this. Like Johannes said, it's not like units spawn randomly, and then wander around to have battles in distant corners. They start at your base, with the intent to conqueror enemy territory, no matter what the game is. So you are going to see some kind of path from your base to his, and some action where his units doing the same thing meet yours somewhere halfway. Unless your units are having a tea party in your base, you are always going to see something like this.
dansan
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by dansan »

I dont have anything to add to the general discussion, but there is something I always wanted to drop about 8v8dsd:

The thing I find most different on DSD-games (TM) compared to games on other maps is not the front line or the lack of M/player, but the crystal clear role every player has on its spot. It's not like that on other maps.

Telling from my own experience: This is a perfect situation for a neewbie:
* observe more exp. player and try to reproduce it -> easier if the role/goal of the player is predetermined
* repetitively play on the same spot and try out little variations of the same game to get better -> easier if the role/goal is predetermined
* neewbies concentration is completely used by eco+fight (sometimes just one of those), to observe what's going on at other parts of the map or to adapt to changing situations, to make/change a strategy needs "free time in brain" which you don't have if you are learning the game -> if your "job" in the team is clear and mostly static it's easier. I think this is the most important point.
* teamwork is necessary if resources are scarce, but teamwork with players of very different exp./skill is difficult -> predetermined roles make teamwork easier, because you don't have to talk/understand each other so much
* the "silence" at mid-game (boring transition time T1->T2) gives a chance to catch up to others, or for your teammates to see your (bad) situation and take over your responsibilities -> noobs do less damage to team -> everyone's happy


"Predetermined roles" also explain why ppl in DSD yell so much more at each other than in other games (though a noob is in 3v3 is much more disastrous than in 8v8, there is less yelling): after some games players become kind of "functionaries" -> they have their job which they "optimize", if everyone on the team would do that -> win.

What I liked about DSD: it gave me lots of time and opportunities to test out different strategies to the same situation:
* I learned teching @north-back
* I experimented with up-hill attacks (rocko microing) or effective defense against that @north-front
* I tried the same strategy on the same spot with ARM and CORE (@different spots)
* I tested out if south front worked better with samsons or levelers

I think 8v8DSD has lots of positive points for newbees.
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Johannes
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by Johannes »

Yeah, it's good for newbie if he enjoys playing the same thing over and over where you cannot properly see the effects of your actions.


But the negative point is that if DSD newbie wants to play another map without such ridiculous tradition of ineffective predetermined roles, much of his DSD skills are useless...
And just the fact that people of so varying skills play in the same game, inevitably leads to frustration on both sides of the skill spectrum.
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Johannes
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by Johannes »

luckywaldo7 wrote:
knorke wrote:So how could maps make games more unpredictable?
I think it would be different if the resources were more concentrated in fewer areas. (think starcraft) Then you would have satelite bases and movement/shifting front lines between those.
Now you usually have one obvious front line and if this line is breached, everything streams through it. (see the blue bend image and the blue stream through the lower choke)
Ah yeah I see where you are going with this. Unfotunately this is nothing you can change with maps. It is the nature of BA. Comparing to Starcraft, expansion is cheap and fast. Even if you have clusters of mex spots, you will still see unit push to whatever expansions are most central, and porc lines there.

And it's not nearly as easy as "make mex more expensive then". Changing something as fundamental as the mex drastically changes the balance of the game. You will see a huge increase in defensive play even in 1v1.
Huh? you can easily control expansion cost with mex size! Expansion is just as cheap and fast as you want it to be. Wind speed is another control, but with less obvious effects.

And it's definitely possible to change the maneuvering patterns with maps, I find maps with low-resource centers very interesting. Center of the map is by default the most sensible place to keep your units, but if you remove resources from there there's at least much less sense to build turrets there, leaving it more open for movement. You still don't want the enemy to have control of the center, since then he can nicely push between and isolate your expansions.
Not to mention, what on earth do you find unpredictable about Starcraft 2 maps? You have a starting base, then a natural, and then usually a closest third, or possibly you have two choices for your third. Then maybe one or two choices for your nearest fourth. Unless you are going for a secret expansion, it is just about as linear as you can get. The only unpredicatability is when there is several possible starting locations for your opponent, but even then you will scout them in first few minutes.
He didn't say Starcraft 2. BW mechanics allow for better defensive play so the expansion patterns can be much more interesting (though not really unpredictable). It's worth thinking about that what makes it possible in Starcraft for map control to switch back and forth so radically, and if that could be emulated into maps for BA.
luckywaldo7
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Given your reaction to solar hitsphere changes I wouldn't have expected such a carefree attitude toward a potential mex price change :shock: .
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Johannes
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Re: Why Mass Appeal = Noob Appeal, A Short Dissertation

Post by Johannes »

What potential mex price change? Oo
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