Decline in the number of players

[TradeMark]

would you go to clean the streets for free just so people can feel happy ?

People do that. It's called altruism, volunteer work etc. Stop trying to force your views on me, I am not going to buy into them.

uhh.... so the people who take their work for free are also altruistic? they want your stuff for free no matter how much you sacrified your life for it... how that can be altruism? thats the exact opposite of it.

volunteer workers do what they do mostly because they dont have anything better things to do, and they feel they have to help others. But building a game, is not HELPING anyone, world will still be the same without your game.

[SinbadEV]

You are really obsessed with my life
*blabla*

lol... you keep saying that, as much as you wanted, i am not obsesed with anyones life here.

How is it dishonest that someone gets to play a game for free? How is it dishonest at all? that is a stupid argument. You are still derailing the thread, do you have an actual point or are you just trolling trying to derail a thread that you don't see a point to?

"how is it dishonest that someone gets to live in a new house for free?" or if you believe programming doesnt cost anything, then you can replace the word house with a word "ditch" or anything which is only the work human can do with no cost except time (and shovel). still not dishonest for taking your work for free of charge ? would you go to clean the streets for free just so people can feel happy ?

while I disagree both semantically and philosophically with smoth I respect his right to hold his opinion.

In my mind the creation of material objects is less valuable then the creation of "Intellectual Property", I just feel that it is too valuable to the advancement of our species and culture to be hoarded behind teams of lawyers indefinitely as this stifles progress... the letter of the law may not agree but the purpose of the patent system if for companies to be fairly compensated for their contributions while providing the details of these contributions to others to take advantage of and build upon... you know, so when someone figures out how to cure kidney stones or make really awesome cookies, the guy who does so doesn't keep it as secret knowledge that he passes down to his children and never shares with the world for fear that he will be unable to be rewarded for his innovation.

Now all that said... the whole video game industry is corrupt and broken so I can respect a guy for deciding he'd rather not partake in it and contributing his time and effort to free-open-source development... it's just too bad smoth was so freaking obsessed with animu in HS that he put all this time and effort into Bandai's IP instead of one he COULD make GundamRTS's assets open source*

* (this is a joke, smoth is awesome... note, whenever I use the term "animu" in place of "anime" I'm probably speaking ironically)

[smoth]

In high school I was into fighting and roleplaying games. I did some coding after I was tired from that and would play a lot of video games because it rains in the south and I could not go outside.

I started gundam my senior year in college. Before that I was heavily into war-gaming but did not play them so much as ran tournaments state-wide. It has been a real downer to see all that stuff die off.

[SinbadEV]

volunteer workers do what they do mostly because they dont have anything better things to do, and they feel they have to help others. But building a game, is not HELPING anyone, world will still be the same without your game.

Given that our society could safely support every poor/homeless person if we all just payed more of our income to social programs instead of buying 46" TVs I'll have to say fixing social problems would definitely be more valuable then making a new video game... that said, I get happiness out of reading a book or playing a video game or having a good coffee... so while those things are less valuable to me then the roof over my head or the food on my plate this does not mean they have NO value.

smoth's philosophy applies "more" to scientific research/efficiency improvement/invention/innovation etc. but it does still apply to creative pursuits... can you immagine a world where people didn't write books or make music because it wasn't AS important as trying to stay alive?

[SinbadEV]

In high school I was into fighting and roleplaying games. I did some coding after I was tired from that and would play a lot of video games because it rains in the south and I could not go outside.

I started gundam my senior year in college. Before that I was heavily into war-gaming but did not play them so much as ran tournaments state-wide. It has been a real downer to see all that stuff die off.

Sorry... I assumed you've been working on Gundam for like 8 years and I had assumed you were around 24 so this would have put it's early development in your HS years... either you haven't been working on it as long as I thought or you are older then I thought.

[smoth]

uhh.... so the people who take their work for free are also altruistic? they want your stuff for free no matter how much you sacrificed your life for it... how that can be altruism? thats the exact opposite of it.

What have you done in the past 2 years? I have visited >13 countries, picked up a new sport(skiing), Trippled my leg strength, doubled my arms, lived in two different cities, swam with the sea turtles, visited aztec ruins(two of my life wants) and that is all while developing gundam, which feeds source, art and help for future moders(with me as a resource) into the community.

I am probably living a fuller life than most dream of.

(sinbad)nope gundam is 6 years old and I am 30.

[TradeMark]

so when someone figures out how to cure kidney stones or make really awesome cookies, the guy who does so doesn't keep it as secret knowledge that he passes down to his children and never shares with the world for fear that he will be unable to be rewarded for his innovation.

inventing a cure for diseases is not the same thing as making awesome cookies that only give pleasure to people. a guy who gives pleasure for others, should also receive it from others equally, and this is where money comes in.

i hate it so much when these pirate party guys (or opensource freaks) always compare those two things, as if people should pleasure each other just because they are so nice guys. IMO thats only a sign of a mental disorder if you live your life only to please others and expect nothing in return.

[TradeMark]

What have you done in the past 2 years? I have visited >13 countries,
*more bragging*.

yeah i understand the game making for you is just a hobby you do every now and then without working too hard for it. i did hobby programming like that years ago, and i felt like you... as if it wasnt honest for asking money in return, but you have to realise others dont know you (thus they dont care if its a hobby for you or not), and theres nothing wrong for asking money even if you enjoyed the work you did (who wouldnt want a job that they enjoy?!)

[SinbadEV]

so when someone figures out how to cure kidney stones or make really awesome cookies, the guy who does so doesn't keep it as secret knowledge that he passes down to his children and never shares with the world for fear that he will be unable to be rewarded for his innovation.

inventing a cure for diseases is not the same thing as making awesome cookies that only give pleasure to people. a guy who gives pleasure for others, should also receive it from others equally, and this is where money comes in.

i hate it so much when these pirate party guys (or opensource freaks) always compare those two things, as if people should pleasure each other just because they are so nice guys. IMO thats only a sign of a mental disorder if you live your life only to please others and expect nothing in return.

Wow, you are really good at taking things people say out of context and spinning them to suit your own agenda.

Let's just say that I disagree with you in your belief that human happiness is not a need. Do you think that anti-depressants should not be covered by health insurance because they are only used to "make people happy"? Do you think that libraries should not have public funding because their only purpose is to entertain?

(see look, I just subverted your point by making you look like a bad guy too, ha, make ME out to be a strawman will you?)

[smoth]

Job, fun.

No

When I am being paid for something I put on my no fun allowed face. Etc

Ok 2 years ago whatever, I have been making things for something like 13 years now. My opinion hasn't changed much. With the fall of blizzard it has only been reenforced.

Point wasn't to brag my point is that in the past 2 years I have done more with my life than most ever will and here is where I get to brag, while doing so I have still been one of the most productive people here. I can brag, I've earned that much.

[Licho]

Doing stuff for money is rarely fun. It's not the same inner creative motivation.

And what are money good for? Buying 2x bigger house or 2x fancier car wont make me any happier compared to creating something. You just need enough for ou and your family. I value freedom to create more than extra fat account.

I spent some time as a professional game dev and I decided I will only code games for fun and do other stuff for money.

Besides you don't have to sacrifice anything. If instead of watching TV and similar activities I code for fun its pure win.

[smoth]

*sniffles* licho understands me

So, how does any of this relate to player count etc guys? Is there an actual point to your discussion direction or do you just want to explore life philosophies? I actually care about the community health so can we has split nao

[TradeMark]

Do you think that anti-depressants should not be covered by health insurance because they are only used to "make people happy"?

i dont know your point about insurance... but anti-depressant is a medicine too, to fix problems, not a toy just to make people happy.

Do you think that libraries should not have public funding because their only purpose is to entertain?

i dont understand why you think i am against free stuff. if i say i want to get paid from my work i do at my free time, it doesnt mean i am against everything free.

Doing stuff for money is rarely fun. It's not the same inner creative motivation.

sure, it gets dull when you are forced to work for it with deadlines etc. ofc. but what we are talking about here is hobby programming, where you are your own boss.

I value freedom to create more than extra fat account.

money gives freedom. too much money gives you so much freedom you dont have to work at all anymore!

Besides you don't have to sacrifice anything. If instead of watching TV and similar activities I code for fun its pure win.

i dont know about you, but coding is never pure fun that equals to watching TV, theres always something pissing you off here and there. And if you make it public, others will try to piss you off too, trolls trolling you, whiners crying why dont you code faster, etc. I rather get paid, and in return i fix the bugs others are crying about, and we both can be happy.

edit: anyways, the amount of dead projects at this site reflects the fact that most people dont think coding is as fun as just watching tv. if they got paid from their work, they might have been happier between all that hatin'/trollin' and maybe finished their projects.

[smoth]

So, how does any of this relate to player count etc guys? Is there an actual point to your discussion direction or do you just want to explore life philosophies? I actually care about the community health so can we has split nao

[TradeMark]

well, its vaguely relating to player count, since if someone made commercial successfull project here, we would also get more players here, but nobody has the motivation to finish anything because they dont care enough because they dont get paid.

see my edit:

the amount of dead projects at this site reflects the fact that most people dont think coding is as fun as just watching tv. if they got paid from their work, they might have been happier between all that hatin'/trollin' and maybe finished their projects.

[SinbadEV]

i dont understand why you think i am against free stuff. if i say i want to get paid from my work i do at my free time, it doesnt mean i am against everything free.

I'm not saying you are against free stuff, I was simply attacking your implication that "pleasure" is not a human need. I need to pay for food, I need to pay for my home, I need to pay for my video games and books... but if I buy bread and meat and make a sandwich for my kid with it I don't have to purchase a second licence to do so, my right to share the thing I bought is implied by my purchase of it.

[Cheesecan]

That's reverse-engineering. An unfortunate property of Java is that its byte code is very easy to disassemble, you can pretty much get the original code immediately. Minecraft has some code obfuscation going on that renames all the methods and variables to gibberish names, but if you read the code you can still figure out what they are and sometimes you could see it immediately too from context.

lol wut... java saves the variable names in the bytecode?

reverse-engineering or not, the source is still open to anyone who wants to take it. what youre arguing here is just semantics. if i obfuscate my HTML/CSS/JS code, does it mean its not opensource anymore....?

Yes the variable names are kept in the byte code, probably only used for runtime exceptions and reflection which are both optional so you would think it could be removed somehow. If you are interested in the subject I think I have a paper on java disassembler logic lying around somewhere on my hard drive.

back on topic or whatever..
This topic has turned into is it moral or not to charge money for a service. Well is it immoral to trade your cow for twenty bags of grain? I think not because that would be saying that everything has a intrinsic value which it does not.

If the game industry is so corrupt as you say, then one way of rejuvenating it would be for a cottage industry of indie game makers to rise up and change the tempo of the scene. Maybe that is not realistic but it's one model for killing the monopoly of EA, Activision and the other few companies that own all the rest. Maybe indie games will never be as big but they obviously can be appealing to some gamers who are tired of ten-hour playtime commercial titles.

I have bought that robot flash indie game(forgot its name), galactic civilizations 2 including expansions and would have bought BA if it was for sale at a reasonable price. I don't consider it wrong to want to support some guys who makes games that I enjoy. Galciv 2 was a really good deal, it cost me maybe $20 and I got a really nice game for that little amount of money. I still play it sometimes which is more than can be said for many big games that I bought.

Maybe smoth and licho have been around the block a little bit and seen some things the rest of us haven't, so maybe they're right that freeware is more fun to develop, but then again notch has said he's still having fun, and he can retire and do whatever he likes when he tires, so I don't think commercial games have to kill the fun unless you as a person have that type of personality where you can't do something seriously at the same time as having fun.

[TradeMark]

I don't consider it wrong to want to support some guys who makes games that I enjoy.

exactly my point there. it cant possibly be dishonest to give money to some guy who makes awesome stuff at his own free time, for me.

[smoth]

We get it you are motivated by greed now shut up trademark seriously.

[Molloy]

It's been a long time since I played this game (I'm going to try and get back into it in the summer when I've some free time) but my main criticism of it in the past is you've let the noobs run the show.

The end result is defence, defence, defence. And defence = repetition. It's human nature for new players to want to simplify the strategic options (narrow maps, large team games) so they don't lose a match in 2 minutes. They think that if they last 30 minutes and don't lose they're playing well. But they're only delaying the inevitable, waiting for some noob on the other team to fall behind or lag out so they can waltz to victory through the big gap the player left.

It's entertaining up to a point but there isn't much depth, and nobody is learning anything. Thus they stop playing once they get bored of playing the same game over and over, which is based on little other than luck.

When XTA stopped being the game of choice (a game that it's impossible to play defensively) the competitive community died.

The only way you'd get the game back to normal is have official maps (open maps.. no more choke point crap) and an official mod.. preferably some early version of XTA.

SY_Yeha has sort of made statements to this effect on the TAUniverse forums. Now XTA is a game with a horrifically steep learning curve, worse than OTA, but at least it promotes aggressive, unpredictable play. IMO you kind of have to save the community from itself. Otherwise it's just a race to the bottom and the lowest common denominator.