American "democracy"

[SinbadEV]

A Mini-Essay On Human Nature

All people are Lazy and Greedy... when people appear to be acting in your best interest they are either A: Trying to sell you are something or B: Including you in the group of people they are greedy and lazy on behalf of (aka family and friends, sometimes co-workers and very rarely a whole country or all of humanity). You could also call this "Striving for Efficiency", people want the most result for the least work.

We tend to resent the rich and powerful because they are better at exploiting us then we are them... in most cases we would act in the same way if we had that power.

Now, this is where socialism comes in... if democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep deciding who to eat for dinner then it doesn't work... socialism says that "I don't want to suffer or be exploited and, as such, I can empathize with those people who are being exploited and will support programs that support those people... because I could be one of them some-day."

Unfortunately, not everyone can manage that nifty empathy trick where they include all of humanity in the group of people they want to receive the most for while personally expending the least amount of effort and so the democratic governments have had to learn how to convince people to act in ways that are outside their personal best interest. Sadly, over time this machine that has become so good at convincing people of things has attracted the exact kind of people that it is meant to protect us against and in the end we are about as worse off as we would have been if we'd just kept doing the monarchy thing.

But, for the time being at least, the tools that the government has been using to convince us to act out of our best interest are available to anyone with the ability to use them and our constitution affords us the freedom do so.

So, go out there and figure out who you want to be your leader and vote for them. PROTIP: The two-party system is a lie our spin-doctoring leaders are selling us... if enough people vote for someone who is neither a Republican or a Democrat they actually can get elected to a seat of power... and if this happens enough it is conceivable that someday we could have a third-party President.

[MidKnight]

Human nature is not inescapable or even universal. See: Altruism.


Also:

Shocked? Not really. Bored? yes. Here's my take on voting and tax:

Voter: Make the fucking trains run on time!!
Gov't: Ok I'll buy new trains.
Voter: No new taxes!!
Gov't: Fine, I'll take the money from another department.
Voter: No service cuts!!
Gov't: Ok I'll invade Iraq and take their trains.
Voter: No war!!
Gov't: What if I whore myself out to big business?
Voter: No corruption!!
Gov't: Ok then how about I ask God to shit magic trains?
Voter: The Christian God or the Puppy Eating God?
Gov't: Um, The Christian one.
Voter: Great, do it and I'll overlook all the dead hookers under your bed.
Gov't: Super, 4 more years!

This is pretty much it. Democracy is very,very good at responding to the interests on the people, and the vocal majority care more for their health care than the national deficit.

[Pxtl]

Everybody wants to cut spending, but if you ask people what programs they would like to see reduced, each program sees like 80% support for keeping it at full funding. The only exception is foreign aid, which is a teeny-tiny portion of the budget.

Realistically, the US government either needs more revenue or to start converting retirees into food.

/Canadian.

[SinbadEV]

Human nature is not inescapable or even universal. See: Altruism.

I define "Altruism" as "Greedy and Lazy expanded to encompass a group"... like, most people would give money to a dying relative and work for the benefit of their family and be angry when the local park get's overrun with vagrants yet not give a thought to the people being systematically degraded by their government or the people who are dying because selling drugs and food at lower prices overseas is bad for the global economy.

[KaiserJ]

well, define it another way then... i suggest the correct way

[SinbadEV]

well, define it another way then... i suggest the correct way

Altruism is just another aspect of the Greed and Lassitude of Humanity... but that's okay because what's good for us all is often what's best for us, individually, in the long run. As such, being greedy and lazy is fine as long as we have been convinced that our "scope" encompasses the whole world.

The other thing I said was mostly an attack on protectionism and how people often feel good about themselves for acts of "Altruism" that are, for the most part, self-serving.

[Johannes]

It seems you're just trying to justify your own greed and laziness

[SinbadEV]

It seems you're just trying to justify your own greed and laziness

Well duh.

(but I was a long haired socialist who wore a trench coat and wanted to change the world in college... and I still read a lot... so when I defend my greed and laziness I have to make it sound like elitist intellectualism.)

[KaiserJ]

maybe you should get the long hair back, your brain is freezing in the cold weather and defining altruism incorrectly

"an unselfish concern for the welfare of others"

[SinbadEV]

maybe you should get the long hair back, your brain is freezing in the cold weather and defining altruism incorrectly

"an unselfish concern for the welfare of others"

And a Unicorn is defined as: "a mythical creature resembling a horse, with a single horn in the center of its forehead: often symbolic of chastity or purity. "

You were saying Human Nature was trumped by Altruism when I had just spent 4 paragraphs explaining why acting in the best interest of others did not have to be unselfish. So it's like I said, there's no such thing as a free lunch because someone has to pay for and you said "you can get a free lunch down at the homeless shelter" and then I say "okay, if you define free as 'payed for by someone else'" and now your telling me I'm dumb for defining "free" incorrectly.

[KaiserJ]

Altruism is just another aspect of the Greed and Lassitude of Humanity

this is what i'm responding to. its just WRONG. words have definitions for a reason. i'm not debating any points with you, im just pointing out that a charitable deed for a self-serving reason CANNOT be altruism. it goes against the definition of the word.

if you'll be making up definitions for words as you go, don't even bother posting ever again, because nobody will know what you're talking about.

talking about frigging unicorns, what the hell is wrong with you

[Gota]

True altruism probably doesnt exist...
The only altruism is imo the one that is forced...
If you are not forced to donate you do it for some selfish reason.

If you are forced to donate your actions is completely selfless since you are merely the one physically donating but your not the one making the decision to do it...
The only question that remains is what about the one who forces.
For the donation or selfless act to be actually selfless the one making the decision to take the action must be selfless himself and since no human can be, the only selfless decision maker is GOD.

If you believe in god than charity rooted in religion is selfess if you do not its also selfish...

[Cheesecan]

Gota Please come back with evidence of this god you speak of..

All cells want is simply to survive longer and multiply..so if the building blocks of life are selfish then how could any organism be unselfish? Even an outwardly selfish act could be triggering different reward receptors in the brain to lower stress levels in the body etc. Because we have evolved to be nice to our communities because in the long run that kind of behavior could benefit the own organism..

[zwzsg]

True altruism probably doesnt exist...
The only altruism is imo the one that is forced...
If you are not forced to donate you do it for some selfish reason.

Some humans still have feelings. Sometimes feelings can make you do things you wouln't do if you were fully rational. Such as altruism. Not all human instincts have been repressed.

[SinbadEV]

True altruism probably doesnt exist...
The only altruism is imo the one that is forced...
If you are not forced to donate you do it for some selfish reason.

Some humans still have feelings. Sometimes feelings can make you do things you wouln't do if you were fully rational. Such as altruism. Not all human instincts have been repressed.

Again, just playing with cynicism here but: If you feel like you should do something for someone else and don't do so, this is an uncomfortable feeling (sometimes called guilt)... you can relieve this uncomfortable feeling by doing the thing you think you should do... eliminating the "guilt" and getting a positive feeling of "pride"... so even there it's a selfish goal... but the real question is why you felt you needed to do something in the first place and THAT is simply cultural conditioning to include the person you are feeling the need to help is "part of your team".

Interesting study cited in "The Tipping Point" ... couldn't find the original paper but this looks like a helpful summary.
http://faculty.babson.edu/krollag/org_s ... marit.html

[zwzsg]

It was pretty selfish of god to:
- Throw Lucifer down
- Bring aging and disease and pain to the first humans
- Trash the whole earth because of a few naughty beings
- Hear us pray and do naught
- Send ten plagues all over the entire egypt population just to free a few slaves.
- Raze cities whole.
- ...

If you read about what God did, you'll see he's mostly powered by revenge and pure hatred. People keep saying he's good and all, but fact is, if Bible is to be trusted, God is a jerk.

Jesus is a bit better though.

[PicassoCT]

Dont know if you start a religious movement, whiout actually improvment (powerhungry still get power, and still missuse it) - and then thousand of people sacrifice themselves to spread it, makes you a murder in my eyes, for not having a clue on human nature.

And yes, the biblical god definalty is a bastard. I prefer Zeus, he is getting around, and doesent afraid of anything, except hera.

[Regret]

Some fallacies in your essay SinbadEV.

All people are Lazy and Greedy...

Hasty generalization.

when people appear to be acting in your best interest they are either A: Trying to sell you are something or B: Including you in the group of people they are greedy and lazy on behalf of (aka family and friends, sometimes co-workers and very rarely a whole country or all of humanity).

False dilemma.

We tend to resent the rich and powerful because they are better at exploiting us then we are them... in most cases we would act in the same way if we had that power.

Base rate fallacy.

if democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep deciding who to eat for dinner then it doesn't work...

Straw man.

[SinbadEV]

I love fallacies.

[smoth]

Snip