American "democracy"

[Forboding Angel]

don't just link a google search, i clicked some of the links and to me the numbers displayed there counteract your argument. i'm not an idiot, i know how to use google

Well... duh. I clicked on the first two links, but I didn't want to post a bunch of links, so I just posted the search that I did.

Isn't the question, why is the guy outsourcing to India? How is that possibly cost effective? The answer is because the US taxes on businesses are the highest in the world. It's not a real shock when you take that into consideration.

@sinbad, now that's what I think it should be. A set percentage. That way, if you want to break it up into shares, that is fair for everyone.

[SinbadEV]

Isn't the question, why is the guy outsourcing to India? How is that possibly cost effective? The answer is because the US taxes on businesses are the highest in the world. It's not a real shock when you take that into consideration.

Granting that I enjoy paying devil's advocate... if it's cheaper to make crap in India then we're going to start funnelling our country's money there and that will harm our economy and people will become poor and/or lose their jobs AND THEN it will be cheaper to hire Americans again because India's economy will have improved and their expected standard of living will have gone up and we won't be able to afford their work anymore while local workers will be willing to work for less money.

[zwzsg]

The answer is because the US taxes on businesses are the highest in the world.

Really? Are you just making that up or? Because if so, I really wonder where does all the tax money go, considering you don't have half the public service developped countries are supposed to have.

[SwiftSpear]

The answer is because the US taxes on businesses are the highest in the world.

Really? Are you just making that up or? Because if so, I really wonder where does all the tax money go, considering you don't have half the public service developped countries are supposed to have.

I'm almost positive that's not true. Source please.

[KaiserJ]

Well... duh. I clicked on the first two links, but I didn't want to post a bunch of links, so I just posted the search that I did.

but the second one i clicked on seemed to support my argument, rather than yours! damned lazy americans can't even be bothered to read :D (that was a joke)

Isn't the question, why is the guy outsourcing to India? How is that possibly cost effective? The answer is because the US taxes on businesses are the highest in the world. It's not a real shock when you take that into consideration.

theres not just one answer, its what you said and what i said and umpteen million other reasons that haven't been stated. i'm just trying to make the statement that a lot of the labor force behind the USA's industry is actually physically located outside of the country. have a peek at the ratios of GNP vs GDP for the USA compared with other places. this decision (or rather string of decisions over many years) to move manufacturing and labor overseas was made with the success of US finance in mind, rather than the quality of life of an average citizen

and yes, the US business tax rate is quite ugly, large corporations can afford it but it puts startup and small business on a knife edge from the outset; some might argue that such taxation is unconstitutional as it encourages conglomeration and monopolization of corporations in order to reach the high demands put on them by the government

[Forboding Angel]

Well whoever wrote that article deserves some kudos, because I could have sworn it supported mine! I'm pretty sure it was somewhere in the middle actually.

But yeah, like you said, the us tax rate on businesses is obscene. It's no wonder that everything that can be outsourced, is. Not something us amerifags are particularly happy with either, but what can we do? We can't make government lessen the tax rates on businesses, and as a result we can't make having mass employees in the US cost effective when compared to outsourcing jobs.

It's interesting that the "We know more about the US than it's citizens because we live in the EU" crowd are collectively standing around scratching their heads on this one. Seriously? You didn't know this? How could you not? You think we like getting shit from china and talking to assholes on the phone from india because we appreciate the quality???

[SinbadEV]

Not something us amerifags are particularly happy with either, but what can we do?

DEMOCRACY!!!! Vote for the guy who isn't taking bribes from the monopolies that benefit from the anticompetitive taxation.

[Wombat]

we got dreamer here

[Forboding Angel]

Not something us amerifags are particularly happy with either, but what can we do?

DEMOCRACY!!!! Vote for the guy who isn't taking bribes from the monopolies that benefit from the anticompetitive taxation.

Ok, that's pretty much every politician. Next!

[KaiserJ]

the "We know more about the US than it's citizens because we live in the EU" crowd are collectively standing around scratching their heads on this one.

outside perspective is very valuable though; if you were sick, wouldn't you see a doctor rather than attempting to self-diagnose? an outside political perspective is like psychoanalysis, it may be painful to hear but it's no less valid

i personally could only see the corporate business taxation problem (as much of an issue as it is) as a causal factor below some others on the list; when you consider price-point of manufactured items... it's cheaper to pay people in third world countries because it's simply a better deal; things cost more to produce in the USA (and every other developed country) because the cost of living and quality of life is higher and the people will simply not work for a wage below a livable level.

would you work for 35 cents an hour to make cheap plastic crap in order to help your country's economy? no, of course you wouldn't because at the end of the day you'd barely be able to afford a hamburger.

IMO the corporate tax is poorly balanced, but at least its a way for the government to draw money back to the people for social development rather than letting the corporations do whatever they like without any payback whatsoever. you're taxing the manufacturing businesses for using non-american labour; a compensation to the american working class for taking their work and giving it to indentured slaves in other places. (unless you aren't talking about the current territorial tax system, in which case, provide links and examples)

[MidKnight]

This is the 2010 US Federal Budget.
It cost us $3.55 trillion dollars. Taxes brought in about 2/3 of that, and we had to borrow the remaining $1.2 trillion-ish.

About 56% of the budget is mandatory spending -- we have to spend that money by law, and can't cut it without changing the law. This is mostly our welfare programs (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid) and interest on the national debt.

Welfare's grown at a scary rate, and congressmen can't vote to cut it, because the AARP (the old-people lobby group here, also the biggest and strongest lobby group here) will boot them out of their offices if they do.

Our discretionary spending mostly goes toward the military. the remaining 20% slice of the budget makes up everything else the US spends money on. Cutting corruption in those areas is good and all, but any gains that come out of it will add up to a very tiny amount in the grand scheme of things.

I hope this cleared up some confusion regarding the issue.

[Wombat]

the "We know more about the US than it's citizens because we live in the EU" crowd are collectively standing around scratching their heads on this one.

outside perspective is very valuable though; if you were sick, wouldn't you see a doctor rather than attempting to self-diagnose? an outside political perspective is like psychoanalysis, it may be painful to hear but it's no less valid

hmm, lets think who predicted financial crisis in USA. oh right.

and it got probably ignored becouse of the way of thinking from the first quote.

[Johannes]

That the top % of people pay so much taxes is mostly a testament to how obscenely rich some are, and getting increasingly more rich. While the majority of people have had pretty stagnant wages since 30+ years in the US.

If you'd put smaller taxes for rich people than they have atm, how exactly would it help anyone but the rich? And if it doesn't, why would you support such a change unless you're filthy rich yourself or have a firm belief you will be.

[Wombat]

in (fail) theory they can afford new working places, decreasing prices for their goods what increases the standard of living of the society.

its well known that progressive taxes (dunno if thats how its called in eng) are the best option but its hard to implement them for obvious reasons (especially in USA)

(by fail theory, i mean pretty naive)

[KaiserJ]

anyways it derailed for a while but i haven't so far seen a single good reason to be offended by mr monopoly being pleasured by an old french lady.

the image itself is bright and cheery, and the satirical aspect amuses me greatly. "good" art as a general rule is considered the sort that provokes a strong reaction of any type, whether it be good or bad, and this particular piece (which i contend was created for trollish purposes in the first place) seems to have found success at least amongst the members of this small discussion.

[SpliFF]

I fucking hate tax debates, they represent a weakness in thinking. Lets look at the options shall we:

1.) Nobody pays any tax
Well, this is pure capitalism I suppose. If you make no money you either steal it or die. If you want a train system you get together with other people and build yourself one then hire people to protect the trains from other people. Soon everyone has their own shares in parts of things but basically the road/rail system is so fucked up and disorganised that nobody leaves their houses (also there are the poor mobs to contend with - they've become zombies from eating human flesh and there's no police or army to deal with them). Society degenerates into tribal war and eventually gets "liberated" by the U.S.

2.) Everyone pays 100% tax
This is a type of utopian civilisation I suppose. You are looked after from birth by the state, you give everything back to the state. Big Bro decides what best. Eventually you get labelled "communist" and get "liberated" by the U.S.

Everything else is just some shade of these 2 extremes. It's not a debate you can really go anywhere with. Anybodies position on the issue is pretty much going to be set by their income.

The only debate about tax that has ANY MEANING AT ALL is HOW TAX IS SPENT.

... but then this thread was about indentured servitude and official corruption, not tax.

[bobthedinosaur]

Cool a troll thread. I haven't seen one of these in ages!

Let me try:

United States? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%8 ... Act#Repeal
Or
United States of god damn America (the home of the brave!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot


http://sclipo.com/videos/view/kang-and- ... embed_code
or
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeche ... ewell.html


History can be just as scary as horror stories and conspiracy theories.

Anyways here is another fun one: Find the US nuclear stockpile in 1964 (this includes strategic and non strategic warheads). Then find the US population of 1964. Then divide the warheads by the population. You can also spice it up by imagining a price tag for that ratio for warheads per people.

[Forboding Angel]

Taxation has a lot to do with that sort of stuff spliff. You can't be super shocked when the thread leans in the direction.

[SpliFF]

Shocked? Not really. Bored? yes. Here's my take on voting and tax:

Voter: Make the fucking trains run on time!!
Gov't: Ok I'll buy new trains.
Voter: No new taxes!!
Gov't: Fine, I'll take the money from another department.
Voter: No service cuts!!
Gov't: Ok I'll invade Iraq and take their trains.
Voter: No war!!
Gov't: What if I whore myself out to big business?
Voter: No corruption!!
Gov't: Ok then how about I ask God to shit magic trains?
Voter: The Christian God or the Puppy Eating God?
Gov't: Um, The Christian one.
Voter: Great, do it and I'll overlook all the dead hookers under your bed.
Gov't: Super, 4 more years!

[Cheesecan]

People: Why are the trains not running!
Government: Because the business men are lazy & greedy!
Business men: There is no money for repairing trains because the government is creating laws(on your behalf) to kill my business.
Government: *hint* You can have some more money, railroad magnate! *hint*
Business man: You want me to bribe you so that I can get more money to repair *your* trains?
Government: Yes.
Business man: *sigh* Okay have it your way.
Government: Thank you.
People: WHY ARE THE TRAINS NOT RUNNING?!
Government: Business men are greedy and not willing to sacrifice for the good of the country!
Business men: We had to stop repairing the tracks to afford repairing the trains.

and so on.