BA dynamics (gamelength, techlevel(s), costs)

[Johannes]

Yeah, but that's more of a gamble. Blowing a comm near the enemy base in a large teamgame means you could see enemies coming out of the woodwork to claim the corpse. The thing with the commwreck-techers is that it's a safe strategy that doesn't have any variables besides "are we dead yet?". It requires no teamwork, no assessment of enemy positions or troop strengths, etc.

Who said a thing about blowing comms near enemy base? He will walk his comm to the front, or if nobodys compushing just kill his weak army, since you've made more units than their side (presuming they indeed have seldf teker). If he builds excessive aa or samsons only, again just kill him with superior army. Of course this is, as I said unrealistic for your usual DSD team since they cannot into doing anything unusual to them.

And selfd tech is nowhere near safe by itself. It can die to just 1 player spamming nothing but t1 bombers from 3 mex for example, with juiciest attack timing being when he has t2 lab nanoframe making.

But anyway the main point was that not going for selfd tech is not auto loss, there's loads more things to try out and refine if you actually care. But unfortunately a lot of them may demand some teamwork. DSD players, just don't want/can't into new things, it's not the games fault.

& Alba let's play 1v1 DSD some time then :D not in next few days tho, I'm on crappy internet atm

[knorke]

Noone except GOTA (and Carp once) asked me to play small team game in the past 6 months !

Because how would other players know you want to play that kind of game?
ie with xta i can play small games too because its always the same people and so you know who will play.
But for ba i dont know any players and it would be nice being able to play without an hour long pre-game chat to arrange the game. I dont mind it that much but it puts a limit on springs playerbase because not everybody wants to chat, players just want to play...

[Nixa]

Just a quick question, you're all blaming mod options and end conditions, but did anyone think that it might be the mod? You know, the thing that you actually play?

Ever consider that the entire gameplay dynamics of BA were never designed for 90% of the games played?

Or is BA the holy grail and must never be spoken of in such harsh tones?

[Gota]

BA is the holy grail and must never be spoken of in such harsh tones!

Fixed.

[Wombat]

ba is game as all others, ppl just like to stare at their fus for 10 min, then make more till 20 min, then make t3 and actually start PLAYING for about 5-10.

u find game like this entertaining ? becouse i noticed thats what u like to do.

[Nixa]

Yup I find it fully entertaining

So much in fact I've been working on mods to change that... oh wait, why the hell am I working on a mod to change something that I like. Man I'm stupid.

[Wombat]

so, together with pyb u spread such faggotry, looks like u all entertain it, playing this way u lose to any decent players.

conclusion - its not games fault it suck if ppl prefer to porc than to make units, which can easly win the game, until its not 1 guy at front and rest teching at back. secondly, if u easly lose to decent players its obvious for me that BA doesnt 'support' such shitty gameplay.

who cares u make some mod ? so u play ba and spam adv fus to piss people off ? pyb ftw

[Nixa]

True I suck, look at me mum I'm the victim of personal attacks on the internet

Way to derail the thread - yo

[Wombat]

1) didnt say u suck
2) these are not personal attacks. im commenting stupid gameplay of urs.
3)how do i derail ? its relevant (wtf is actual topic of this anyway)

EDIT - my whole point is same as in this lolithread about removing loet hosts. ppl are problem, not the game.

[Nixa]

Ok fair points, so 90% of people are the problem because they play on these hosts.

Which is a littly funny, doesn't that make them the majority and correct and you the problem?

Edit: I'm not taking any sides with the hosts, personally I enjoy playing with people on mumble and having a laugh (isn't enjoyment the main point of playing). If I didn't have these people to play with I too would get bored with the same old, but unlike you I do have people to enjoy this game with.

[Wombat]

Ok fair points, so 90% of people are the problem because they play on these hosts.
Which is a littly funny, doesn't that make them the majority and correct and you the problem?

isnt english most popular language in new zealand ? where did i say anything about hosts ?

personally I enjoy playing with people on mumble and having a laugh (isn't enjoyment the main point of playing).

problem is u are having laugh at 1 bars which let u nap them, lost com stupid way or something like that.

but unlike you I do have people to enjoy this game with.

well, obviously u fail if i got clan with like 15 members (well ok, most of them raged coz of constant dsd/life D:) wait, was that personal attack ? having problems countering my points ? awww :<

[Johannes]

Exactly what problem is Wombat causing to DSD players?

But if you look at the "problem" stated in the OP - BA 8v8 DSD games are too drawn out and inactive. And for that to change people only need to play more aggressive. Sure you can design a game in which there's no other sensible option than to play constantly aggressive, but will DSD porcers like it? If they'd like to play more aggressive game why don't they do that in BA already.

[Nixa]

Exactly what problem is Wombat causing to DSD players?

But if you look at the "problem" stated in the OP - BA 8v8 DSD games are too drawn out and inactive. And for that to change people only need to play more aggressive. Sure you can design a game in which there's no other sensible option than to play constantly aggressive, but will DSD porcers like it? If they'd like to play more aggressive game why don't they do that in BA already.

You hit the nail on the head, and that poor nail must be getting very sore because it's been hit over and over again for the last 4 years.

The game needs to be enjoyable for all in any state, whether it be 8v8 or 1v1. Clearly it's not, yet it's defended so heavily with the whole *it's a finished mod* hurra, only to have thread after post complaining about it.

Simple truth is like Johannes said - "If they'd like to play more aggressive game why don't they do that in BA already".

Simple solution - make the game equaly viable using any strategy in any situation. Right now this is semi true for small games *to a limited degree*. But for you're standard BA 8v8 9v9 it isn't. The techers generally dominate the game direction if allowed to live past 10 minutes or whatever.

The mod is not finished, let go of that belief and you'll have your answers (failing that, continue to play small games with the remaining 5-10% of the BA community)

It is unrealistic to think that 8v8 and 1v1 will ever be the same.

[Wombat]

i still think players are problem, not dsd, loet, or 2,5k com. seriously, u ppl whine that changing map means 10-15 min of idling. so, u prefer to play 1h dsd u dislike than actually waiting, OK LETS SAY 20 MIN, and play the map u like ? wtf is this, plain stupid thinking... changing map is not that hard dammit :c

there is 8v8 dsd. front players want to play aggresive but most of the back players porc, coz they are afraid of enemy porc and think there is no other way to victory than porc. what if all players from the team makes untis and just overrun enemy ? its all about making simple decision >>

ppl who consider themselfs as 'pro' and someone who are better than 'these dsd noobs' usually fail most. lost of bs talk about how terrible spring/ba/dsd is, but they actually do shit... and are usually first to play dsd. the fuck for were all these months of begging for ladder ? everyone are in every clan anyway. old clanmates are playing against each other just to be in bigger stack and win the game.

nigga please

EDIT

The game needs to be enjoyable for all in any state, whether it be 8v8 or 1v1.

im sorry, but i enjoy my games a lot, mainly becouse i dont have to play dsd, 90% of the votes to change the map pass, there is max 1 techer. vote doesnt pass ? i leave. AMAZING...

Simple solution

right...

[Nixa]

A ladder would be a terrible idea if you want to get players to play smaller games. People don't like getting beat on individually let alone having the beating recorded for everyone to see lol

vote doesnt pass ? i leave.

Rofl, point proven

[Johannes]

The game needs to be enjoyable for all in any state, whether it be 8v8 or 1v1

But it cannot be, different people have different preferences.

Simple truth is like Johannes said - "If they'd like to play more aggressive game why don't they do that in BA already".

So i guess I have to answer that question too. Because they are not used to it, it's as simple as that. They either don't think it's doable cause they don't know better or they know their teammates won't do it. NOT because you found some perfect way to play BA.

Now show me a replay of 8v8, all players on one side making units asap and using them in a semi sensible fashion. Provide few such games and I might believe you that aggression can't win in 8v8 BA. Or we can play 1v1 with 8 comms each, you think it would just be passive sitting back game?


And BA has flaws, yes, but this isn't about balance problems here it's about player stupidity and lack of teamplay.

[Wombat]

what point proven? i try to change map, which in most of the cases ends with success. if it fails, i leave and i got no reason to rage or whine about techers. thats the problem, i at last try, there are many ppl who want to play something different.

but nah, lets baw baw, its easier.

[submarine]

To avoid confusion: I have only read the first two pages of this thread so far, so I am sorry if any of this has already been suggested/discussed.

The reason I stopped playing BA ~1 year ago was mainly its IMHO flawed concept of exponential economic growth. Given a sufficient number of players in a team (on most maps > 5-6) teching up is the only possible strategy (except if the other team is pushing early in a coordinated effort, which will not happen in a random team on the typical 8vs8 players host)

I played S44 for quite some time which does suffer from that problem. There is a finite number of flags and thus the ammount of available ressources is limited.

If a BA last long enough there is always a point from which on a metal maker based eco provides the player with higher income compared to extractors.

What about the following idea:

- Remove metal makers completely (or at least remove moho metal makers and only keep the T1 makers, as a player requieres an enormous ammount of safe terrain to get +50metal/second from T1 mm)

- Optionally: Increase metal income from commander (maybe to something like 5 metal/second, but will have to be debated&tested) -> every player is provided with a small but fixed income, any additional metal will have to be either reclaimed from wreckages or extracted from metal spots. Additionally players who keep their com instead of reclaiming it for faster teching/use it as a com bomb are rewarded.

What do you guys think about it? If enough people like the idea maybe we could implement something similar as a mutator and test its impact on the game style.

[Hackfresser]

BADSD is the only thing which KEEP spring alive.

- You dont need 1000 hours of game to challenge true veterans when u play DSD. IMO, that is why most of the poeple here feel frustrated because they go beaten 'so easily' by "noob" (goldstar), even those 'vet' have 5 times more XP. Number of noob matters more than number of good players in DSD so team with a low rank standard deviation usually wins.

I mean what do you expect ? If you make DSD players play small team games CCR-like map, it will be 100 freewin in a row for the non DSD players (players who are here on this forom arguing on all that DSD8vs8 threads.) In thoes game vet really can win games alone.

Do you really think they will play 100 loose in a row for fun ?

this.
8v8 DSD is an environment where noobs dont get their asses handed to them.
usually they dont even notice their own fail.
they take a tech spot, go start their adv sol farm, and 20 mins later they die to that stumpie swarm in their base? well, the frontline players obviously fucked up this one.
they go front, start their HLT spammage and get owned by yet another stumpy swarm? again, the back players fucked up this one by not supporting the front enough.
DSD makes newbies feel good about themselves. if they win, its because they played well. if they lose, its not their fault. also they can do awesome stuff like pyro spam! (right into enemy porc.) or penetrator spam! (without tank support ofc.) or even build some awesome mechs and wreak havoc! (when the game is alrdy over.)

but, lol, DSD actually keeps this game alive. it is the part of the game thats most appealing to noobs. DSD used to be my fav map when i was new, and thats probably true for most DSD-haters in here as well. without DSD, our playerbase would dwindle imo.

Albator is right. put a noob into a ccr 2v2 and watch him suck and die in a matter of minutes. he will feel bad about himself. nobody likes a game that makes you feel bad about yourself.
this would be less of a problem if we had a solid matchmaking that would match up players of similar skill. but we dont have one, and i dont think this could even be done since the community is too small and the variance of skill levels is huge in here.

A ladder would be a terrible idea if you want to get players to play smaller games. People don't like getting beat on individually let alone having the beating recorded for everyone to see lol

LOL has a system where you can only see the records of players who perform above average. thats a good thing imo.

Given a sufficient number of players in a team (on most maps > 5-6) teching up is the only possible strategy (except if the other team is pushing early in a coordinated effort, which will not happen in a random team on the typical 8vs8 players host)

ive been theoretizing about this a bit; this doesnt really add much to the discussion, but i will share my opinion about this anyway =) :
i think in a larger game, having 1 more techer then the enemy has will put you at a good advantage. having access to T2 tactics early on will lead to an advantage that is bigger then having that additional frontline player.
BUT having 2 more techers then the enemy has will lead to almost automatic defeat. having 2 less front players will cause the frontline to crumble before the techers will have any effect.

Remove metal makers completely

Thumbs up. my thought since i played OTA twelve years ago.

What do you guys think about it? If enough people like the idea maybe we could implement something similar as a mutator and test its impact on the game style.

i think the game alrdy offers the option to disable some units. maybe set up a host like that and see how it works out? imagine DSD with no mm. poeple actually fighting over m spots...
right now we have games with an abundance of m spots, which is mostly skirmishes which aim to disrupt enemy eco, and congested games in which... well you know how that plays out.
add the congested game with something to fight for... i bet it would be a constant, nerve-wrackingly micro-intense close combat in the middle of the map.


btw how do i make my signature work? i play BA under a different name ([LOeT]Bad), so maybe a few poeple would recognize me in this forum... i already found that "always show my signature" button, but it doesnt do anything for me.

[bobbelurman]

Lots of good suggestions in this thread. Owen; will you consider any change to E/M conversion ratio and/or T2 costs?

As much as I enjoy BA, I'm saddened that front players who like to do micro and aggressive playing never find they're able to win or push by holding and dominating ground - it's always the techers in the back that decide the outcome. Also the issue with nubs not realizing their fail (and learning from it) should be resolved.