[CRAZY IDEA] Help me invent an "Open Source" Card Game

[SinbadEV]

So, I've been bouncing this idea around in my head for a while and then I let it lie fallow for a while because the "team" I brought together to help me invent the game got a "real-lifed" on me... bleck.

so, lacking any current creative outlet and knowing that you people are creative I figured I'd present the CRAZY IDEA for your input.

This idea has 3 or 4 "levels of complexity" so this could take a while:

Level 1: "Free Open Source" Card Game
The basic idea is that Customizable Card Games (think both Magic the Gathering and Munchkin as part of the same category) are expensive for what they are (bits of paper) because they "represent" a whole bunch of work that some people have done (inventing rules, cards, creating art assets, rule-books, packaging, promotional campaigns etc.)... this is similar to "commercial" video games... so what if there was a "Spring" equivalent for card games? A "framework" of rules and mechanics that could be extended and used to implement card games... people could print off these cards or play the games with software implementations for no cost... and could even profit by printing these cards and selling them (GUN GPL).

Level 2: The System Authority and the Game Authorities
The problem with people making up there own games is that they have to convince other people to play by their rules... what I propose is a group of people who would take on the role of "authority" for the game, set up official rules and tournaments, websites and forums etc... then when people make up their own games using the "system" they would essentially be establishing themselves as "game" authorities.

Level 3: Flagship game and System Development
A system cannot be developed in a vacuum so a "flagship" game would need to be developed to get things under way... I have come up with a rough framework for how this game would work (though I think some of the drafts I built describing the game were lost with my last hard-drive)... but anyways... what I'm looking for is essentially interest in the idea of the idea.

While the final product will be "free", I'd like to keep the development in the "closed beta" model... I have a document I developed to present my idea to my first "team" that I can send to any interested parties but essentially the concept is (in my best attempt at "market speak"):

In this game the players represent the rulers of semi-autonomous fledgling settlements competing for the same piece of land and surrounding resources. Your Goal is to be the last city standing by eliminating or overwhelming your opponents.

Practically this game is similar to other card based strategy games. There is a deck of cards (in this case one you have chosen and built), you draw a hand of cards which represents actions and resources that you can bring into play. Unlike Collectible Card Games, every card in existence is available for you to use to build your deck, because of this, more powerful cards will be available for all players equally. To mitigate this a ÔÇ£Deck PointsÔÇØ system has been designed to allow you to ÔÇ£BuyÔÇØ cards into your deck, cards that would be ÔÇ£RarerÔÇØ in other CCG systems simple cost more ÔÇ£PointsÔÇØ than what would be considered ÔÇ£CommonÔÇØ in those other systems.

The game is centred around the idea that you are the person in charge of a city and you improve your city by creating and expanding ÔÇ£GuildsÔÇØ, which in turn allow you to perform actions and enlist combat units to eliminate you opponents' cities.

[SwiftSpear]

Card games are innately moddible. That's the draw of them. They're infinite. You can always add new cards to the system. Lots of people play magic with custom cards they've added to the deck.

The real problem, as I see it, is that in order to make this work you need some sort of streamlined way to make the cards. The authority issue is minor, the advantage of an authority is simply to make whatever game more balanced.

[SinbadEV]

Card games are innately moddible. That's the draw of them. They're infinite. You can always add new cards to the system. Lots of people play magic with custom cards they've added to the deck.

The real problem, as I see it, is that in order to make this work you need some sort of streamlined way to make the cards. The authority issue is minor, the advantage of an authority is simply to make whatever game more balanced.

@SwiftSpear (as the only one who actually responded in a way even remotely approaching constructive input.)

I'm not sure what you mean about "streamlined way to make cards"... it's very easy to print out cards on a printer, cut them out and slip them into a card sleeve with an existing playing card... I assume you mean a "structured set of rules for how to create new cards"?

At one point I was working on the system with that in mind, there was basically a scripting language to build the cards effect... (permanence*effect)/runCost=deckCost... with anyone being able to create any kind of card... the authority would simply define the scripting language and base Costs of different kinds of effects and states of permanence... the "mechanic" was to deck out the opponent so it would be universal... players could create a mechanic like "tap card to prevent one damage" or "tap to add one counter to this card; remove one counter to prevent one damage" or pretty much anything... I likes this approach because it would effectively be self balancing... but we realized that it would be too steep a learning curve to actually attract any real audience.

Then after discussion and thought we realized that people could just make their own magic, yugioh, pokemon or whatever cards/deck building rules so we'd need to make up a NEW game to make it worthwhile for people to get on board... which meant creating a base set of cards for people to choose from (and then later releasing expansions)... the authority would have contests allowing people to submit and vote for cards for inclusion in future expansions so after the initial release, much of the burden of card creation would be deferred to the community.

At one point I tried to develop a web based application to assist doing test matches of my game but then I realized I could just use an existing system (like magic workstation etc)... though admittedly the "printing them off and playing" option would be my preference... I don't have enough friends with no lives to help me.

The biggest element of my system would be the "deck building rules"...

each card would have a "deck cost" and a "deck limit"

let's say decks need to be 64 cards and 128 points... a "basic card" would have a deck cost of 1 and a deck limit of "infinite"... a common card would have a deck cost of 2 and a deck limit of 4, an uncommon would have a cost of 3 and a limit of 4... proceeding on to higher costs for better cards... certain cards (think black lotus) would be limmited to fewer a deck... while perhaps a "special land" might have a cost of only 1 but a deck limit of 8...

[knorke]

At one point I tried to develop a web based application to assist doing test matches of my game but then I realized I could just use an existing system (like magic workstation etc)

You mean you made a thread that after 2 replies derailed into a discussion about phone bills?

If you want something to be moddable you first need to make the base. If you want to keep this basegame secret, there is not really much to dicuss.
Also I think that make games, not engines is even truer for board/card games then it is for video games.

[SinbadEV]

If you want something to be moddable you first need to make the base. If you want to keep this basegame secret, there is not really much to dicuss.

The hope was to draw out collaborators to assist with helping me flesh out the base before releasing it to the general public. I effectively have a "base" already... it's just a little "raw" still. (oh, and I haven't started making up cards wholesale yet because I don't want to have to start again if the "base" get's altered significantly.)

ALSO:

At one point I tried to develop a web based application to assist doing test matches of my game but then I realized I could just use an existing system (like magic workstation etc)

You mean you made a thread that after 2 replies derailed into a discussion about phone bills?

Heh, yeah... I got a friend to get me the activation code and then started development, people were able to create accounts and log-in and chat with each other using the system and I'd started the infrastructure of implementing "tables" that accounts could join and an interface for people to create cards and manage decks before I gave up on the venture...

[KaiserJ]

and why do you need help exactly

[smoth]

sinbad's resume related to these kind of threads.

which is why I have not said anything.

[SinbadEV]

I see evidence that there is a severe lack of interest and/or confidence in me and my ideas among y'all but perhaps you will be able to recommend something for the following tiny sub-issue:

It is my intention to create the cards and keyword rules using an XML-like format...

[code]
<keyworddefinition name="Basic" class="simple" />
<keyworddefinition name="Advanced" class="simple" />
<keyworddefinition name="Mage" class="group" />
<keyworddefinition name="Mercenary" class="group" />
<keyworddefinition name="Guild" class="system">
<results>
<result conditions="OnPlay" value="Establish a Level 1 [group] Guild or Add 1 to the level of an existing Guild with a [group] Component" />
</results>
</keyworddefinition>
<card>
<id value="">
<rarity value="0" />
<limit value="0" /> <!-- limit 0 is "unlimmited" -->
<name value="Mage +1" />
<actionpointcost value="1" />
<types>
<keyword value="Basic" />
<keyword value="Mage" />
<keyword value="Guild" />
</typekeywords>
<requirements>
<requirement value="" />
</requirements>
<results>
<result conditions="" value="" />
</results>
<combatstats iscombat="false" strength="" dexterity="" intelligence="" />
</card>
<card>
<id value="">
<rarity value="1" />
<limit value="4" /> <!-- limit 0 is "unlimmited" -->
<name value="Mage +2" />
<actionpointcost value="2" />
<types>
<keyword value="Advanced" />
<keyword value="Mage" />
<keyword value="Guild" />
</typekeywords>
<requirements>
<requirement value="" />
</requirements>
<results>
<result conditions="OnPlay" value="Establish a Level 2 Mage Guild or Add 2 to the level of an existing Guild with a Mage Component" />
</results>
<combatstats iscombat="false" strength="" dexterity="" intelligence="" />
</card>
<card>
<id value="">
<rarity value="0" />
<limit value="0" />
<name value="Mercenary +1" />
<actionpointcost value="1" />
<types>
<keyword value="Basic" />
<keyword value="Mercenary" />
<keyword value="Guild" />
</typekeywords>
<requirements>
<requirement value="" />
</requirements>
<results>
<result conditions="" value="" />
</results>
<combatstats iscombat="false" strength="" dexterity="" intelligence="" />
</card>

[/code]

Are there any "project hosting" sites (I'm thinking google code, google projects, git hub, source-forge ) that support version-ing by FTP... AKA I download a file by FTP and then edit it locally, then upload it back to the FTP server with the same file name and the server will keep the old one like when I edit a file in a wiki?

[Peet]

I am glad this thread at least resulted in the creation of this hilarity.

Sinbad what is wrong with a normal version control system like svn/git?

[SinbadEV]

I am glad this thread at least resulted in the creation of this hilarity.

Sinbad what is wrong with a normal version control system like svn/git?

I don't want to have to install the local client... Ideally something like the http://ace.ajax.org/ code editor being implementer on a svn or git repository would be ideal but failing that I've started using Notepad++'s built in FTP functionality.

I log-in to the server using FTP, double-click the file I want to edit and it loads in the Notepad++ editor window (with syntax highlighting if appropriate), then when I click "save" it uploads the modified version of the file to the FTP server in place of the original... what I'd like would be something this easy to use but ALSO providing the versioning.

After typing what I just did I realized there may be a git plugin for Notepad++ that would provide the desired functionality... it looks like there is but it's not quite as seamless as what I'd like.

[Peet]

TortoiseSVN is obscenely easy to use....

[SinbadEV]

yes, but it's active software that would have to be running in the background for me to use it right? It's not a matter of difficulty so much as "I'm doing it from my work laptop and I don't want to be running a program that could interfere with my work related software"... Notepad++ is approved software already.

[momfreeek]

Nice idea. I've been playing a bit of MtG again recently but have so-far resisted spending any money (I've been down that slippery slope before). Borrowing decks can be fun but its deck composition thats the real game and MtG is a filthy money grab these days even more than ever (stat creep means you need to keep buying the latest releases to compete).

I think there are probably better ways to restrict a deck than a points system. I can see that becoming a real bind when modifying a deck (swap a few cards in and out and you've got to reach for the calculator and add 60 numbers). Magic is real nice cause there's only two restrictions: minimum 40 cards, max 4 duplicates of any one card. Card rarity is fairly moot as at tournament level players will pay for whatever cards they need anyway. Balance is maintained (at least it should be) by mana cost; powerful cards have heavy restrictions on when they can be played.

[SinbadEV]

Nice idea.

Thanks! PM if you want me to send you my draft "Manual"

I've been playing a bit of MtG again recently but have so-far resisted spending any money (I've been down that slippery slope before). Borrowing decks can be fun but its deck composition thats the real game and MtG is a filthy money grab these days even more than ever (stat creep means you need to keep buying the latest releases to compete).

I have a couple decks worth of MtG cards and though I invariably lose, I do enjoy the game... the filthy money grab/stat creep side of it is one thing that motivated this idea ... Though I found that in the case of Magic Workstation games online, where there was unrestricted access to all cards, I still lost more often then not.

I think there are probably better ways to restrict a deck than a points system. I can see that becoming a real bind when modifying a deck (swap a few cards in and out and you've got to reach for the calculator and add 60 numbers). Magic is real nice cause there's only two restrictions: minimum 40 cards, max 4 duplicates of any one card. Card rarity is fairly moot as at tournament level players will pay for whatever cards they need anyway. Balance is maintained (at least it should be) by mana cost; powerful cards have heavy restrictions on when they can be played.

My system is relatively simple. You get a certain number of "rarity" points per deck (I'm thinking about 100 for a 60 card deck right now)... it might take a spreadsheet at most to work out the math to start with.

As such, "swapping out a few cards" should not be terribly difficult... aka: swap out 2 cheaper cards for 1 more expensive card and a basic "Guild" (unlimited and 0 rarity cost) OR find a card you need less with the same rarity and switch them.

[SinbadEV]

After a period of frustration I created my project on SourceForge and set up SVN access to accommodate my work... after additional frustration I have a file in this SVN:

http://afosccga.svn.sourceforge.net/vie ... iew=markup

can you tell me if it is too code-like? not code-like enough?

[Gota]

Use this perhaps?
http://www.vassalengine.org/

[SinbadEV]

Use this perhaps?
http://www.vassalengine.org/

When I get around to the point where my game makes enough sense to have people actually start play testing it... that actually looks like a good option.

Also:
[code]
<macro class="requirement" function="MinGuildGroup(number,group)" value="Player must control a Guild with at least [number] Levels of [group]" />
<macro class="trigger" function="OnPlay" value="The result is added to the stack immeiately on successfully playing the card and meeting all other requirements. When the result is resolved the card is discarded." />
<card id="" name="Better Cheese">
<rarity value="1" />
<limit value="4" />
<actionpointcost value="2" />
<types>
<type value="Merchant" />
<type value="Society of Wizards" />
<type value="Action" />
</type>
<requirements>
<requirement value="{MinGuildGroup(6, 'Merchant')} AND {MinGuildGroup(1, 'Society of Wizards')}" />
</requirements>
<results>
<result trigger="{OnPlay}" value="Target 'Wizard Citizen' under another players control is now under your control." />
</results>
</card>
[/code]

This is a subset of data which would be used to define a card (the "macros" are shared with many other cards and duplicated here, out of order, to demonstrate the syntax of the system.)