Sigh... who put rapid in a subfolder?

[Forboding Angel]

Seriously, I expect more than this sort of dumbassery from the spring devs. Here is a protip for whichever person did it: If you don't have the foggiest idea how a subprogram works, perhaps you should ask before doing something that will break it. Yes it is tidy in a rapid folder, and yes it was a "good idea at the time" but the problem is that rapid only works when it is next to unitsync.dll, spring.exe, etc, so in essence you have completely nullified the reason for rapid-gui's existence. ./SLAP - That's for not telling anyone that you moved it's location.

Protip #2: Testing, it's not just for end users anymore.

Suffice it to say, we still love you, just please think things through a little bit better next time. kthxbai.

[bobthedinosaur]

umm is it just me or are you asking for an ass kicking forb?

[Forboding Angel]

Dev makes undocumented change that causes new installs of evo to be broken and it's shocking that I'm not happy about it? In your mind, how does that work?

[bobthedinosaur]

Well, maybe you could communicate it in a less dramatic way. The "/slap" shit and the condescending attitude piss me off and I'm not even an engine dev. I understand frustration, but just try to think about what you say and how it may come off as.

[Forboding Angel]

Well hmm, the evo download page in the past 2 days received over 600 hits. Who's being melodramatic? Things like this cause real issues and people (especially the engine devs) should be acutely aware of that fact.

[MidKnight]

Well, maybe you could communicate it in a less dramatic way. The "/slap" shit and the condescending attitude piss me off and I'm not even an engine dev. I understand frustration, but just try to think about what you say and how it may come off as.

Yeah, I agree. Your situation is serious, Forb, but it doesn't give you license to go around yelling indiscriminately at engine devs. You bring up an urgent issue, but there are much more effective and polite ways to convey its importance.

[Forboding Angel]

My yelling was far from indiscriminate. I was very clearly addressing the one person who made said change.

You guys are aware that putting rapid in a subfolder ensures that rapid gui and the normal rapid program won't work at all, right?

Hmm, I was most definitely not polite, but I was a lot nicer than I feel I needed to be, given all the problems that have arisen simply because of this little debacle.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

It's worth noting that while making a huge stink may not get me liked, it does raise attention to issues. At some point I hope that people will listen. if not, well, fail, but at least i gave it a shot.

It doesn't help that when you calmly bring attention to issues, even big ones, more often than not you get brushed off, which is just plain weird tbh, should be the other way around. Keep in mind, I as well as a few others around are "oldfags" and most of us base what we do and/or say upon what we've seen in the past. That said, things are significantly better now than they have been in the past, even with the various developmental hiccups.

[smoth]

but forb your tone and sense of humor are all lost in text. This behavior while borne of frustration is atypical. Please at least strike out the cursing in the future. This isn't you, it may be the stress of the move or that you will be away and evo broken for a time but it'll be there when you get back. Your players will understand and if they do not they don't deserve to play evo.

[AF]

I think forebodings approach is interesting. To explain why, I shall start at my own and ellaborate

I tend to try not to be as aggressive, and instead be more persistent. This results in my initial requests being completely ignored, so I repeat, and I stress how important it is, and they go with no response:

Code: Select all

while(true){
    if(problem_acknowledged == false){
        reportIssue(urgency++);
        timesreported++;
        sleep(50000);
    } else{
        if(problem_fixed){
            thankyou(fixer);
            if(timesreported == 1){
                showerWith(PRAISE,fixer);
            }
            break;
        }
    }
}

Numerous people on this forum also share a very similar though slightly different version of the above. The problem is, that developers are oblivious to the above behaviour and instead see this:

Code: Select all

while(true){
    if(!problem_fixed){
        reportIssue(MAX_INT);
    }else{
        nextIssue();
    }
}

Which is incredibly counter-productive because as you can see, they are very likely to ignore the problem until I have prodded that so many times that it hurts, then only look at the most recent attempt and conclude they're all massively urgent and that.

The natural consequence is that urgency++ reaches incredible heights, as does the amount of energy I have to exert to get them to even make a noise, nevermind a full syllable. What's even worse is the developer might not pay full attention and mark it as a nonissue or wontfix, then close the whole line of inquiry before I can explain the circumstances.

The sad part is that something like the following would have been enough to avoid the whole thing, and save masses of time and effort:

Alrighty, Ill take a look at it when I have time, cant promise anything though

At which point I'd be happy to wait patiently and quietly for weeks on end.

This behaviour is shared by numerous people here, only they usually have an extra clause:

Code: Select all

counter++;
if(counter > 5){
    giveupinfrustration();
    break;
}

Foreboding, heavily frustrated and peeved off has decided to modify his reportIssue into a screamIssue() call in hopes to saves the massive waste of energy that is repeatedly reporting the issue with greater and greater urgency then waiting and checking if anything is happening.


All in all:

• It takes a massive amount of time and effort to get a developer to acknowledge a problem, which in turn makes it take even longer the next time you have an issue
• It should literally take 20 seconds, any details can be provided in logs and a detailed bug report that can be read later
• Developers loose out because they're being pressured unnecessarily
• It burns bridges amongst developers in a community that otherwise has a shortage of developers.

When things go well:

I will say, that Abma does not follow the above behaviour, and I've managed to talk about things with him and sort out problems very quickly with the minimum of fuss and wasted time. I've noticed other people having the same experience with him and he earns much respect for it.

[Forboding Angel]

AF pretty much nailed it. Smoth you are correct... Anyone who has spent any length of time with me on voice chat would know the tone of voice I wrote that in.

Let me put it this way. I received many many many emails about evo install and update not working. Unfortunately it took me several days too long to fix it. It was an easy fix, but that means that it has been broken for new users since the latest version of spring, and then we have threads like this: http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25228

Which make me look like an asshole to a potential player. Not very happy inducing.

[zwzsg]

Interesting AF.

Are there ragers for hire? I've lost all my energy.

[Peet]

Which make me look like an asshole

Seriously, I expect more than this sort of dumbassery from the spring devs. Here is a protip for whichever person did it: If you don't have the foggiest idea how a subprogram works, perhaps you should ask before doing something that will break it. Yes it is tidy in a rapid folder, and yes it was a "good idea at the time" but the problem is that rapid only works when it is next to unitsync.dll, spring.exe, etc, so in essence you have completely nullified the reason for rapid-gui's existence. ./SLAP - That's for not telling anyone that you moved it's location.

Protip #2: Testing, it's not just for end users anymore.

Suffice it to say, we still love you, just please think things through a little bit better next time. kthxbai.

I'm not sure which of you had the great idea of adding that giant piece of fail, but tbh I don't really care. I just spent 15 tries to log into this forum regardless of the fact that my password was right every single time, I couldn't log in because of this fucking idiotic captcha that no one can read much less understand.

GET F****** RID OF IT!

I think you are doing a perfectly good job yourself.

[Forboding Angel]

Apparently you didn't read AF's post. Read it first and you'll gain some insight.

[knorke]

never having used rapid i didnt know its now included installer.
*checks spring folder*
oh. *doubleclick rapid-gui.exe*

nothing happens?
Must be the bug from this thread!
So i move all files into spring root folder.
Still nothing happens. Even left it open for 15 minutes or so.


Dont know if its broken or i am doing it wrong but point is:

it does not give any errors about not finding unitsync or whatever, no matter where you put its files.
So it either works from any folder now or its just totally fubar.

[Forboding Angel]

Rapid gui won't spit out an error knorke. rapid.exe is the only part that's particularly important.

Also, gui has to load unitsync which can take a reeeeeaaaaaaaallly long time. It will work fine if you copy everything in the rapid folder to the main spring folder and then run rapid gui.

Also, regarding attitude, it's interesting how quickly the lot of you forget that I have spent much time and effort and raeg defending the engine devs. Perhaps the moderator that warned me for this topic might bother to remember that little tidbit as well.

[smoth]

still forb, try and understand not everyone can read the "tone" you normally have to your post. It is not surprising that people take it as a flame.

[Forboding Angel]

Ya know, smoth you and I have been around for what... 6 - 7 years (8 technically but I didn't bother to reg a forum account till 2005 ish), and I've known you for at the very least 5 years.

Haven't we been around enough so that people (especially the engine devs who are oldfags) understand our tone by now?

How is it not obvious by now that condescension like that is a nice way of airing frustration instead of all out raeg? I even bothered to do it with hints of humor and not bother to get actually upset about it (though undocumented changes with stuff relating to the engine is freaking irritating).

Everyone here is so damn literal and humorless when it comes to arguments. Smoth, weren't we the ones that these same people were telling to grow thicker skin 5 years ago? Yet I'm the p*ssy that can't take criticism?

The logic is so retarded that you can't even get frustrated with it, you just look at it with O_O eyes and shake your head. Oi.

So which is it, grow thicker skin and dish it out, or develop identity crisis feelings and empathize with everything and everyone?

[Peet]

Option c: communicate what you want without being a huge dick....I read AF's post and it is irrelevant to my comment.

[knorke]

Rapid gui won't spit out an error knorke.

that should probally be fixed?
bit OT but who made this rapid anyway, is it yours?
there is no readme, "about" menu or anything where to give bugreports.

[SirMaverick]

Also, regarding attitude, it's interesting how quickly the lot of you forget that I have spent much time and effort and raeg defending the engine devs.

It's easier/faster to destroy than to build up.