All .S3O features have flipped polygons

All .S3O features have flipped polygons

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Vehementi
Posts: 67
Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 23:27

All .S3O features have flipped polygons

Post by Vehementi »

After a bunch of testing, we discovered that features, when using s3o models, have flipped polygons in game. This is only true for features and not for units. We can't determine whether this is the case with 3do features as well, since they're double-sided.

Here's a big post I typed up before deciding to do a bunch of testing anyway:

Image

I'm trying to make rocks for TA (yay!) but when I load them into Spring all the polygons are flipped (i.e. the outside is invisible and you can see the proper texture on the inside of the model.) I'm using s3o format and they appear correctly in Upspring v1.0 and in Lightwave 8.3 but not in the actual game. Upspring has an option to flip individual polygons and if I flip all the polygons in the model (so that it is fucked in Upspring) it appears correctly in Spring.

In case it's unclear due to messed up perspectives and reversed textures, in this picture I've gone into Upspring and flipped a few of the middle polygons to illustrate how everything is just totally reversed in Spring. You can see in the Spring shot on the left that the corresponding panel of the rock is correctly oriented while you're seeing the inside of everything else.

I imported Wolfy's peewee unit model as a feature (I replaced the rock model/texture with the peewee unit's model and texture) and it was inverted too. I then took a 3do unit that is currently in the game and saved it (using Upspring) as a s3o model and used it as a feature, and it was inverted. I took my s3o rock model and replaced the peewee model with it, and I drove around non-flipped rock-peewees for a few minutes. Note that they have the same, correct "normal body with a hole in it" as the Upspring picture on the right:

Image

Obviously the workaround is to just flip everything in Upspring, but if this ends up being a Spring bug that gets fixed, I'll have to rerelease all the objects again, which would be shitty. So is this a problem with upspring or TA Spring or what, and is it going to fixed, and if so in which program?
maestro
Posts: 352
Joined: 08 Jun 2005, 11:10

Post by maestro »

Hi, glad to meet other lightwaver :)
btw you should download the upspring 1.1, so many thing improved in it

ps : do you use lightwave original uv-map or use uv plugins/software ?
I really hopes Newtek will improve LW internal UV system one day....
The 8.3 improvement is all in rigging and fx, it is nice but we need several thing improved in the modeller modules
LW UV system dont even have box UV-mapping :cry:
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Weaver
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Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 21:15

Post by Weaver »

I reported this a while back. http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... 1288#41288
I wouldn't have minded but the flipped polies ruin the reflection map. I would like to make all kinds of features for spring, but there's no point until this is fixed.
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TA 3D
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Joined: 12 Nov 2004, 06:08

Post by TA 3D »

Your'e not the only one with this problem. All features are incorrectly generated in spring. All S3O files that are used for features are inverted. Here's a tree I made, it looks fine in Upspring, but in Spring it's inverted:

In Upspring:
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... in_ups.png
In Spring:
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... sttree.png

Also 3do files, when used as a feature are generated mirrored instead of their actual model form. Here's my example, note the side that the raised arm is on.

In 3do Builder:
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... statue.png
In Spring:
http://www.fileuniverse.com/images/Comm ... n-shot.jpg

Zahpod, and all listening Spring Programers: Spring has problems with model geometry creation when using features on maps in 3do or s3o model formats! It needs to be fixed!
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jcnossen
Former Engine Dev
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Joined: 05 Jun 2005, 19:13

Post by jcnossen »

SJ and me thought that features were flipped in the versions before 0.67b3 .... that's why SJ changed it. Some people in the irc channel reported this I think... but now I'm confused as to what is the right way.
All the screenshots in this thread are 0.67b3 right?

In that case the faces have to be flipped again next version...
Vehementi
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Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 23:27

Post by Vehementi »

Yeah we're using .67b3
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TA 3D
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Joined: 12 Nov 2004, 06:08

Post by TA 3D »

Zaphod, these pics linked here are from the lastest version. I have not inverted the faces of eather of the models.
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... fliped.jpg
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... fliped.jpg

The s3o tree was only exported with the s3o plugin for MAX, and the statue was made with 3do Builder.
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Dragon45
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004, 04:36

Post by Dragon45 »

That's why the Crystal World map looks bad on latest Spring version! All features look like poop.

Ack, makes so much sense now.
renrutal
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Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 16:45

Post by renrutal »

TA 3D wrote:Zaphod, these pics linked here are from the lastest version. I have not inverted the faces of eather of the models.
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... fliped.jpg
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... fliped.jpg

The s3o tree was only exported with the s3o plugin for MAX, and the statue was made with 3do Builder.
Why these .jpg are BMPs?
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Pxtl
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Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Post by Pxtl »

TA 3D wrote:Zaphod, these pics linked here are from the lastest version. I have not inverted the faces of eather of the models.
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... fliped.jpg
http://www.maj.com/gallery/3dbricks/TAS ... fliped.jpg

The s3o tree was only exported with the s3o plugin for MAX, and the statue was made with 3do Builder.
psst... jpegs aren't supposed to be 3.8 megs.
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NOiZE
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Post by NOiZE »

i suppose i will have to rerelease my maps then :S
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Caydr
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Post by Caydr »

I was actually _JUST_ going to post this here. I just made my first GEM unit which isn't basically symmetrical, and lo and behold it's reversed.
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Pxtl
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Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Post by Pxtl »

Caydr wrote:I was actually _JUST_ going to post this here. I just made my first GEM unit which isn't basically symmetrical, and lo and behold it's reversed.
Actually that sounds like a completely different (and equally bizarre) problem.
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Caydr
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Post by Caydr »

Oh... yeah, on reading the topic, I guess it is. Anyway, to be more specific, the unit is flipped on the X axis. So, picture a stumpy but with its turret on the other side.

Edit: Were you by any chance using the Mirror modifier at any time? I just mirrored my model so it'd come out the proper way, and now all my polygons are inverted too!
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TA 3D
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Post by TA 3D »

No it's a feature only geometry problem. It takes the 3do models that are fine in 3do builder and mirrors them across, while s3o files are in verted in spring, but in Upspring there just fine. It seems to me somehow the geometry code for featuers got mixed up, even though it's supposed to be the same as the one for normal units.

Don't worry about the images, it's the point i'm trying to make with them thats important.
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Dragon45
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Post by Dragon45 »

vertexXpos ^ -1, anyone? ;)
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jcnossen
Former Engine Dev
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Post by jcnossen »

For clarity, features WILL be flipped back again with the next release. I can't give you any date for that though.
Sorry for the inconvenience, like I said we were told that features were flipped, so we flipped them but now it seems it was good in the first place :S
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GrOuNd_ZeRo
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Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 01:10

Post by GrOuNd_ZeRo »

Zaphod, could you do me a favor and add mirror model? this is kinda like inverse, but mirroring the object, kinda like flipping it horizonally or whatever?

my model is now in mirror view, and I have no way of converting it, for some reason the 3DS's and OBJ's produced by Upspring are not compatible with Milkshape or Lithunwrap...or RhinoCeros.
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jcnossen
Former Engine Dev
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Post by jcnossen »

Ok I will add a mirror X/Y/Z for the next upspring.
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GrOuNd_ZeRo
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Post by GrOuNd_ZeRo »

Thank you :D

BTW, what causes the blue model problem? it seems clear to me I'm having missing textures, I have DDS textures in unittextures and springtex and nothing seems to help...so what am I screwing up again? I can't find topics that discussed this before... :evil:

Edit: figured it out now...got my first S3O running :) pics coming soon, please be aware, it sucks...
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