Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]
Moderator: Moderators
I think i have found a little glitch:
I played a game of AA 1.3-S 3v3 on Flooded Desert where one player built a hovercraft plant and one from the opposite team built an adv. aircraft plant.
The air-player then attacked with Brawlers and the hover-player, being Core, tried to defend with a bunch of "Slinger" Anti-Air-Hovercraft.
The Brawler-Assault on the base lasted several seconds and the "Slingers" were roving and sliding on the ground directly beneath the Gunships, with all their weaponary sticking up from their back, seemingly aimed and ready to fire, yet, not one missile or flak-shell left their barrels.
The Hover-Player consequently lost the battle and the game.
Afterwards, i tried to reproduce the obvious bug by building a few Slingers and a few rapiers and other aircraft.
I then ordered the Slingers to fire at my aircraft, at the ground, at buildings, land units, etc. but they refused to open fire. I entered FPS-Mode and tried to fire them manually, but all i did get was a "aiming" response for all three weapon slots, and the green circle indeed actively aimed at flying targets, but i could not fire the weapons.
You might consider looking into that before releasing the next version of AA.
I played a game of AA 1.3-S 3v3 on Flooded Desert where one player built a hovercraft plant and one from the opposite team built an adv. aircraft plant.
The air-player then attacked with Brawlers and the hover-player, being Core, tried to defend with a bunch of "Slinger" Anti-Air-Hovercraft.
The Brawler-Assault on the base lasted several seconds and the "Slingers" were roving and sliding on the ground directly beneath the Gunships, with all their weaponary sticking up from their back, seemingly aimed and ready to fire, yet, not one missile or flak-shell left their barrels.
The Hover-Player consequently lost the battle and the game.
Afterwards, i tried to reproduce the obvious bug by building a few Slingers and a few rapiers and other aircraft.
I then ordered the Slingers to fire at my aircraft, at the ground, at buildings, land units, etc. but they refused to open fire. I entered FPS-Mode and tried to fire them manually, but all i did get was a "aiming" response for all three weapon slots, and the green circle indeed actively aimed at flying targets, but i could not fire the weapons.
You might consider looking into that before releasing the next version of AA.
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Archangel of Death
- Posts: 854
- Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 18:15
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smokingwreckage
- Posts: 327
- Joined: 09 Apr 2005, 11:40
Yeah it is when someone starts building the core Lvl-1 Forge.
Additionally[1.3-S]:
- I don't think the repulsor / energy situation is copacetic... Don't know what it is doing, but it's not a constant load.
- The Spider is labelled an "All-terrain EMP" kbot, but it is not all-terrain.
Code: Select all
scripts\corforge1.cob
No Cob File- I don't think the repulsor / energy situation is copacetic... Don't know what it is doing, but it's not a constant load.
- The Spider is labelled an "All-terrain EMP" kbot, but it is not all-terrain.
Unit Balance
Someone said (in quotes):
"Goli: I think its fine. Mavs, shooters, and bulldogs are a great way to kill em...and air of course."
My Reply:
--- I tried 10 golly versus 12 bulldogs with bigSteve. Same cost (roughly) -- Result? 12 dead bulldogs, 7-8 alive golliaths. Tried the same kind of test with mavs, results: Complete mav obliteration, lost 0 golly. Not to be offensive, but you need to test things a little more before saying this stuff =(. I'm not even going to get into the shooters b/c their just not effective against a mass of goliaths at all...Their damage is so-so, their expensive, their slow and they die easy. Golliaths are completely overpowered.
"Sumos: To me, they are a bit too fast, but they aren't too powerful. A huge swarm of flash tanks can make quickly eat these guys away. And again, mavs and air. Mavs are great up close, def in swarms. "
My Reply:
Once again, you gotta test this stuff. Try 5 sumos versus their cost in mavs...Be sure to bring alot of caskets for the Mav funeral. I did not test them against flashes since those are non-kbot. I tried sumos against every other ARM kbot unit...Sumo spanked them all. Sumo is overpowered, but less so than goliath.
"EMP Spiders: These things are a bit overpowered IMO. Not only do they have a decent amt of life, but they stun very fast, move very quick, and are very tiny. I seen ppl use nothing but these against a diversitfied army and stunned almost the whole army. Tanks have almost no chance of hitting them since they move very fast and are very small. Kbots do great, but the range and rate of fire on many of them are short, that they can get in 1-2 shots b4 they are stunned. Same for static defenses. These things are like EMP zippers. Maybe a slower rate of fire, or lower emp damage, or a bit of both. Maybe a very small hp reduction. I dunno, you choose."
My Reply:
-- I agree these are overpowered. Riot tanks do VERY well against these though. My fear here is that Caydr will do what he did to the bladewings...make it so sucky nobody will ever build them again. This kind of unit is very easy to make into the 'Its very good, NERF, oh no its useless' scenario. My request to Caydr would be that he take changes to this unit SLOWLY...One change at a time...Don't go and change 4 parameters of the unit at once please. Also, ONLY nerf this unit if you are going to nerf the golliath and sumo as well. Frankly, I like ARM because of its mobility...but if you nerf the EMP spiders and not golly/sumo, I will be playing core permanently...Shrug.
Couple of other balance bits:
I've been told by Mother that he thinks llt damage is too weak... I refute this =). I look at every game i've spectated/played in with decent players...they *all* build llt. If it was weak, people would not use it -- QED.
On a similar vein: I think HLT's could use a boost. Their rate of fire seems slower than llt (so their less useful against fast units) and their damage seems subpar... I can't remember the last time I built a HLT, I preffer to build many LLTs...shrug. I think HLT damage could use a boost.
-Drexion
"Goli: I think its fine. Mavs, shooters, and bulldogs are a great way to kill em...and air of course."
My Reply:
--- I tried 10 golly versus 12 bulldogs with bigSteve. Same cost (roughly) -- Result? 12 dead bulldogs, 7-8 alive golliaths. Tried the same kind of test with mavs, results: Complete mav obliteration, lost 0 golly. Not to be offensive, but you need to test things a little more before saying this stuff =(. I'm not even going to get into the shooters b/c their just not effective against a mass of goliaths at all...Their damage is so-so, their expensive, their slow and they die easy. Golliaths are completely overpowered.
"Sumos: To me, they are a bit too fast, but they aren't too powerful. A huge swarm of flash tanks can make quickly eat these guys away. And again, mavs and air. Mavs are great up close, def in swarms. "
My Reply:
Once again, you gotta test this stuff. Try 5 sumos versus their cost in mavs...Be sure to bring alot of caskets for the Mav funeral. I did not test them against flashes since those are non-kbot. I tried sumos against every other ARM kbot unit...Sumo spanked them all. Sumo is overpowered, but less so than goliath.
"EMP Spiders: These things are a bit overpowered IMO. Not only do they have a decent amt of life, but they stun very fast, move very quick, and are very tiny. I seen ppl use nothing but these against a diversitfied army and stunned almost the whole army. Tanks have almost no chance of hitting them since they move very fast and are very small. Kbots do great, but the range and rate of fire on many of them are short, that they can get in 1-2 shots b4 they are stunned. Same for static defenses. These things are like EMP zippers. Maybe a slower rate of fire, or lower emp damage, or a bit of both. Maybe a very small hp reduction. I dunno, you choose."
My Reply:
-- I agree these are overpowered. Riot tanks do VERY well against these though. My fear here is that Caydr will do what he did to the bladewings...make it so sucky nobody will ever build them again. This kind of unit is very easy to make into the 'Its very good, NERF, oh no its useless' scenario. My request to Caydr would be that he take changes to this unit SLOWLY...One change at a time...Don't go and change 4 parameters of the unit at once please. Also, ONLY nerf this unit if you are going to nerf the golliath and sumo as well. Frankly, I like ARM because of its mobility...but if you nerf the EMP spiders and not golly/sumo, I will be playing core permanently...Shrug.
Couple of other balance bits:
I've been told by Mother that he thinks llt damage is too weak... I refute this =). I look at every game i've spectated/played in with decent players...they *all* build llt. If it was weak, people would not use it -- QED.
On a similar vein: I think HLT's could use a boost. Their rate of fire seems slower than llt (so their less useful against fast units) and their damage seems subpar... I can't remember the last time I built a HLT, I preffer to build many LLTs...shrug. I think HLT damage could use a boost.
-Drexion
Re: Unit Balance
Now why are you trying to get me in trouble?Drexion wrote:Someone said (in quotes):
I've been told by Mother that he thinks llt damage is too weak... I refute this =). I look at every game i've spectated/played in with decent players...they *all* build llt. If it was weak, people would not use it -- QED.
But yes I think LLTs are a tad weak. I like the short radius, its just that they don't do too well against a large portion of lvl1 units. I think the reason you see llt's used is because there is nothing better in the early game.
BTW I want the laser to do more dmg vs lvl1 units, not more HP. If llt's had a more reasonable build time that might also work. Then again if HLTs were worth building it might moot the point. Heck I miss MT's that shoot at ground units too, but Im not asking for them.
But watch yourself- your 'If they were weak, people would not use it -- QED' is fraught with sophistry. Building LLTs vs not building LLTs is a much more compicated question.
PS Placing the 'LLTs are weak' opinion on my shoulders is a really dirty way to make sure Caydr never ever makes them stronger
PPS Yeah I know you said 'good' players, and therefor are excluding me
EMP SPIDER BALANACE
Hi, Big Steve here, just saw drexes post and I agree with everything pretty much :)
Just on the topic of the emp spiders, I noticed a post where it was suggested they would be slowed to the speed of a flash.
I dont really think this is the best way to go at the moment, arm rely heavily on the fact they have very mobile forces as a pose to core's Lumbering juggernaughts like the golly and sumo.
The flash is kinda slow and if the spiders cant close in on the attacking army fast enough they will be ripped apart faster than you can say
"Ive got a louverly bunch o coconuts!"
and I can say that pretty fast hehe...
My suggestion would be to try a very slight reduction in hp (some units still do well against the spider e.g the leveler)
and a small reduction in firing rate... I think they just paralyse a little to fast at the moment.
Or perhaps increase cost or buildtime as a pose to reducing speed hp or firing rate?
Anyway they are level 2 so please dont nerf them too much if poss :)
Im whining or anything - I love aa and Caydr is doing an awesome job, especially as hes doing this stuff in his own time which I think is rather fab seeing as he isnt being paid...
I just wanted to add my opinion to the mix...
Thanks
Steve
Just on the topic of the emp spiders, I noticed a post where it was suggested they would be slowed to the speed of a flash.
I dont really think this is the best way to go at the moment, arm rely heavily on the fact they have very mobile forces as a pose to core's Lumbering juggernaughts like the golly and sumo.
The flash is kinda slow and if the spiders cant close in on the attacking army fast enough they will be ripped apart faster than you can say
"Ive got a louverly bunch o coconuts!"
and I can say that pretty fast hehe...
My suggestion would be to try a very slight reduction in hp (some units still do well against the spider e.g the leveler)
and a small reduction in firing rate... I think they just paralyse a little to fast at the moment.
Or perhaps increase cost or buildtime as a pose to reducing speed hp or firing rate?
Anyway they are level 2 so please dont nerf them too much if poss :)
Im whining or anything - I love aa and Caydr is doing an awesome job, especially as hes doing this stuff in his own time which I think is rather fab seeing as he isnt being paid...
I just wanted to add my opinion to the mix...
Thanks
Steve
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DavetheBrave
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 22 Jun 2005, 02:52
On Goliaths: More expensive units should be able to kill more than their weight of the cheaper units. Otherwise, there would be no point in building a bulldog instead of a stumpy. However, how much advantage they should have is debatable(sp?). Gollies for example should be able to beat those bulldogs, but maybe not with 7-8 remaining?
This may be obvious, but when greater numbers of units are involved->the balance(or imbalance) becomes more exagerrated.
For example: If you have a 10:12 bulldog to golly ratio, 8 gollies will survive, right? While if you had a 20:24 ratio, I'd bet that more than 16 gollies would survive. That means that no matter how little the advantage is, the more expensive units will win out in 'unfair' ratios if you have enough.
This is also why it is necessary to make very small changes to balance
On EMP spiders: These are definetly unbalanced. Their hp doesnt really matter, rather it is that they are extremely hard to hit(as small and as fast as a flea). Decreasing speed and adding hp seems the right thing to do. Still, I think that reverting to the bigger model would be best..if this is possible.
Anyways, thanks for the great mod Caydr!
This may be obvious, but when greater numbers of units are involved->the balance(or imbalance) becomes more exagerrated.
For example: If you have a 10:12 bulldog to golly ratio, 8 gollies will survive, right? While if you had a 20:24 ratio, I'd bet that more than 16 gollies would survive. That means that no matter how little the advantage is, the more expensive units will win out in 'unfair' ratios if you have enough.
This is also why it is necessary to make very small changes to balance
On EMP spiders: These are definetly unbalanced. Their hp doesnt really matter, rather it is that they are extremely hard to hit(as small and as fast as a flea). Decreasing speed and adding hp seems the right thing to do. Still, I think that reverting to the bigger model would be best..if this is possible.
Anyways, thanks for the great mod Caydr!
Increasing LLT hit points by 3...
But seriously, I can't really adjust them in very many ways because of the way the balance is set up. Like, if I increase their range for instance, I'd have to increase 40 other units' range. I could give them a small firepower boost I guess.
But seriously, I can't really adjust them in very many ways because of the way the balance is set up. Like, if I increase their range for instance, I'd have to increase 40 other units' range. I could give them a small firepower boost I guess.
Last edited by Caydr on 19 Dec 2005, 01:09, edited 1 time in total.
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smokingwreckage
- Posts: 327
- Joined: 09 Apr 2005, 11:40
Okay, I'm pretty inexperienced, but it seems to me that of the LLT and the HLT, it's the HLT that is weak, coming slightly later game and seeming to do little damage vs Rockos for example (or is this a deliberate boost to the rocko's early base-busting role?)
I'm not sure how valid a "this many of this unit vs that many of that unit" comparison is. Manouvreability counts, letting you choose your ground, control resources, and hamper the enemy's expansion, res collection, and tech-up. And every game has a unit in it that forces a tech-up (or gross outnumbering) to properly counter it; the usefulness of such a unit is reduced if the other side gets better early-game and raiding. A better test of balance would be to play a map several times, switching faction each time, and see who ends up with a victory advantage. If the victory ratio by faction is roughly 50-50, balance is OK. If the victory ratio by player is severely skewed, well...... someone is leeter than thou.
I'm not sure how valid a "this many of this unit vs that many of that unit" comparison is. Manouvreability counts, letting you choose your ground, control resources, and hamper the enemy's expansion, res collection, and tech-up. And every game has a unit in it that forces a tech-up (or gross outnumbering) to properly counter it; the usefulness of such a unit is reduced if the other side gets better early-game and raiding. A better test of balance would be to play a map several times, switching faction each time, and see who ends up with a victory advantage. If the victory ratio by faction is roughly 50-50, balance is OK. If the victory ratio by player is severely skewed, well...... someone is leeter than thou.
wish arty also uses some sort of "brain" ... like "this enemy is too close to 'important unit / structure' DO NOT FIRE at it!" ...NOiZE wrote:imo all high trajectory weapons are too high
don't know if that can changed but it looks rather silly how arty and punishers fire right now.
way too much Friendly Fire losses from own plasma arty (high trajectory + missfire rate) ... typical example medium plasma guns ...