New GroupAI's

[BeeDee]

Mexxing:
Orders a con-unit to start placing metal extractors where it sees fit.

This is sorely needed. It would really improve the game, especially if I could order it to move somewhere, and it would build at the closest location it sees fit around where I moved it, then expand TOWARDS my base. If it runs out of space, it should then start expanding proper.

This alone would make my day, the early game is such a pain trying to juggle mex expansion with throwing down some quick anti-rush defences. Even later on I dislike having to divert my attention from strategizing to throw down extra mexes.

Basedefence:
Orders the con-unit to just place defences where it seams fit.

I'm skeptical, but okay, well give it a run. Maybe a better alternative would be to skatter defenders around your base, for air cover. That's always a remedial and boring job, whereas the placement of a HLT or three involves careful thought.

This is also a good one for the basic defensive stuff that just needs to be salted around a bit (MTs, flak, maybe some LLTs). One would have to make sure one doesn't block factories with these things, that would be annoying.

How about a hybrid of this and the mex AI that goes around DTing mexes, and maybe putting an LLT or MT next to some of them, to slow down mex-popping raiders a little?

Gatherer:
Orders a con-unit to wander the map and just extract/gather recourses it can find, like trees and rocks. May be usefull for homeworld type of games/mods.

Yep, I like.

Make sure it's adequately cowardly, or an enemy could set up a turret next to a nice juicy lump of resources to wipe out all your roving con units. :)

How about a radar-building group AI that wanders the map putting down radar towers wherever there isn't currently any coverage (hopefully with some minimal smarts so it doesn't bother with tiny radar shadows in craters)? This wouldn't necessarily be such a big advantage if the raiding AI is also implemented, lone radar towers in the wilderness wouldn't last very long.

[CrowJuice]

Ok what most people agree on is the mexxing AI. Now we just need somebody willing to make it

[AF]

I'll port the factor agent to a groupAI and release the code but it's upto you to fill out the build trees with whatever you want it to do, be that build radars, mexes, etc........

And I'll do ti in my own time, I'm busy with NTAI 0.29 atm and exam revision

[CrowJuice]

Thanks Alantai! I know you got a lot to do so I really appreciate it. Release it when you find the time m8. No rush

To bad I've only dabeled with Qbasic hehe Well atleast we're a step closer.

[Blizzard 2]

Looks like a supcom preview.

[DavetheBrave]

I really dont think any ais like this should be released until the host has a way to control it...

However, I am not against these group ais in general, I just dont want them being used in every game that I play. It is something that it would be very interesting to try out though.

[mongus]

ahm.. usually win against players that were getting a lot more metal and energy than i did.

what makes you think they will ever learn to play fine even using this ais?

but seriously, yes, once i saw one replay of min3 vs dave.

and... well.. hm.. the CBAI gave min3mat some advantage..
(despite he was using only gollies and weasels.. hehe).

But it was Dave's fault at the end to lose, not really bc of the CBAI, but bc he did some major mistakes attacking, expanding and finally erasing min3's bases.

The only way we can tell if they make a lot of difference between players, is using them

have any good replay using CBAI Min3mat?

and there is a scout ai already, it was in the ais forum?..

[Min3mat]

eh?
dude i dont use CBAI! i shit u not! my micro is that good! or are u saying dave was using it? coz the only AI i use is MMAI. doubt me? delete the AI folder and watch my replay or something, i swear to the deity of ur choice that it is my hand and my hand only that graces my units with build orders

[PauloMorfeo]

I give up. The only one interested is Zoombie. No point in doing anything Alantai as hardly anyone wants it.

I do too! At least some of them like sending auto managed scouts or cons spamming mexxes around automatically (good for maps like Plains and Passes).

... the CBAI gave min3mat some advantage..

What's that CBAI thing?

[mongus]

eh?
dude i dont use CBAI! i shit u not! my micro is that good! or are u saying dave was using it? coz the only AI i use is MMAI. doubt me? delete the AI folder and watch my replay or something, i swear to the deity of ur choice that it is my hand and my hand only that graces my units with build orders

erlm..h...what is this? Min3mat. (maybe fooling around that time?).
Be advised, its a replay for version .65b1, so it will work only with that version of spring.


this was the original post that i did on that subject.

Posted that thinking on getting some opinions on the ais and stuff, but nobody took the bother to see the replay, or comment it there..

In that replay, Central Build AI (CBAI) is used extensively by min3mat.

Nothing against it, i would use it if it actually worked on for me, but in most games it refuses to do so.

So, any words on that replay and how AI's help players at all?.

here is a shamefull short and insolent description of CBAI and how to use it, should improve that someday..

[mongus]

duh, watched the replay again, and no. You dont use the ai.

got confused.

you did some huge queues, issuing orders not to one builder, but 5+ to do the same thing. not usuall, the way its displayed on screen when you select the builders and press shift, its similar to what you see with that ai assigned to the builders, (without the "build order" lines).

so, sorry, my mistake there.

well a good replay using it is handy then :)

[SwiftSpear]

CBAI is utterly uninterseting to me unless it lets me define and edit my own build sequences. I've never even touched it, it's just an annoying menu that gets in the way when I accidentally press the key.

[Min3mat]

ah!
shift + ctrl z is ur friend, the units guarding stay guarding, idle cons get to work, cons currently building help later
:)

[mongus]

CBAI is utterly uninterseting to me unless it lets me define and edit my own build sequences. I've never even touched it, it's just an annoying menu that gets in the way when I accidentally press the key.

what are you talking about swiftspear?

list? what list?

it really seems you have never touched that ai group.

Min3mat.. wierd way of playing... Only pros i see is there wont be idle workers.
In that game vs dave, you lost a lot of builders, yet some of them accomplished their tasks, and generated some good ouposts that later decimated dave's forces. So, at the end it had good results in that game.

[Min3mat]

yeah its too small a map for that to be affective. on CC this micro OWNS

[Felix the Cat]

GroupAI's can also even the learning curve. The AI sucks but it can teach the player of the basics before he/she starts taking over the base planing by him/herself.

Wrong. New players would never learn base planning, resource allocation, unit building, mex placement, scouting, or any of the other mentioned things. They'd simply rely on the GroupAIs to do it for them. Because they're noobs, the first time they tried to do any of those things themselves, they'd do worse than the GroupAI, and would thence go right back to using the GroupAIs.

The only GroupAIs that I think should be used are ones that reduce tedious repetitive tasks, and make Spring less of a who-can-click-faster game - the Metal Maker AI is a good example of this.

One thing, and please forgive me if the answer's obvious: is there a GroupAI that, if you were to manually put your units in a particular formation, automatically keeps them in that formation, including while moving, including synchronizing everyone's movement speed to that of the slowest mover?

[AF]

You guys never learnt to explore a program and see everythign It could do, honestly, epopel never reading up the readme and thus never knowing you cna take cotnrol fo a unti in FPS mode, or the simple formation GrouPAI that k-man wrote that has been there since Spring version 0.4, or the double click on a unit and all units of the same type onscreen are selected......

[CrowJuice]

Wrong. New players would never learn base planning, resource allocation, unit building, mex placement, scouting, or any of the other mentioned things. They'd simply rely on the GroupAIs to do it for them. Because they're noobs, the first time they tried to do any of those things themselves, they'd do worse than the GroupAI, and would thence go right back to using the GroupAIs.

Ofcourse they would rely on the AI in the beginning. But as they get more experienced they would start taking things into there own hands. Do you really belive a veteran player would rely only on AI for building, placment of max, etc if the player started of with AI's from the beginning? People learn, adapt and improve. And the AI is a perfect learning tool for complet noobs. TA is a complex game with complex strategies. IMO it would be better to give a new player a helping hand instead of throwing them into the game with no help at all.

@Alantai:

Double click? I never knew that! Well now I know Anyways that trick with giving the com the MMAI didn't work ;p

[AF]

That's cus the MMAI needs to be changed slightly for it to work.

I think what you'll find is that the veteran player will not be a sprign player, possibly because of the

" I didnt like spring that much cus these AI's keep doingall the little btis for me that i want to do myself, so i quit ti"

followed by

"Youc an turn them off???? wow I didnt know that... I'm addicted to this game now tho, maybe soem other time"

Which is why they should eb off by default and they should be seen as a n00bish thing and people should be encouraged to think of them that way, for example by us all calling them trainer AI's and not GroupAI's.

[FizWizz]

...us all calling them trainer AI's and not GroupAI's.

label the AI button "TrAiNiNg WhEeLs" in a really cutesy bubbly font that changes between the primary/seconday colors with each letter, but I guess that comes with the new GUI =P.

Honestly, I don't see any problem with Metal-maker AI, Central-Build AI (haven't used it yet, but it doesn't sound real bad), or a mexing/Solar-farming (or to be more inclusive, "buildings with metal cost <100 and E production >15 or something like that) AI.