Marketing Plan Plan

[Hobo Joe]

That line of evolution continued and the result is known as Balanced Annihilation.

Followed by ba as the first project gg, you mak it seem lik ba is the base game. Doesn't help that we still have to use that fucking MODule nomenclator which makes our projects seem like the amateur hack job of teenagers

Gundam

Is not a searchable form "gundam rts" would have been correct ffs I have a logo and all.

Ba is not the focus of spring, it is an offshoot of AA. The spring devs USED to dev XTA and only bothered with swta and XTA. I was the third converted project. But no, spring started as this fucking weird civil war looking thing.

It is a good effort but you should have left the *a stuff as a footnote

You're mad cause i put BA up front but in every sense it is the flagship mod. Spring was originally a TA remake, and although it has changed names many times, BA is the end result as of now, and remains the most popular mod by a massive margin. I'm advertising other games but to ignore BA for what it is, that being the most popular spring game and also the primary reason that other Spring games get the attention they do - would be stupid and very misrepresentative. It was a necessary and accurate introduction, your anger doesn't change that. I'm sorry you hate *A games so much, but like it or not they are the reason you have such a good platform for your RTS game, and also a big part of the attention you get for it.

[knorke]

"TA Spring" all over again.
and thats why i suggested post your startpost here first.

[Hobo Joe]

"TA Spring" all over again.
and thats why i suggested post your startpost here first.

No, I introduced it as an RTS engine, and gave a very brief overview of how it got started. TA remake -> XTA -> AA -> BA. BA is most recent and still by far most popular. I absolutely want to give all games publicity but I also want to give an accurate view of Spring, and that means *A dominated.

This is also why Spring never gets advertising. People go apeshit over advertising anything *A related but none of the non *A game devs bother to advertise at all. If you're going to advertise Spring as an engine you have to include everything and everybody here wants to deny that. Just come to terms with the fact that, for now at least, Spring is inextricably tied to TA and TA related things, and it will remain that way for a very long time. I'm not trying to perpetuate that but I am not trying to deny it either. I did my best to give an impartial view of what Spring is without dominating it with "TA SPRING!" stuff, while not excluding the fact that it is a community built VERY largely around *A things.


I'm not a developer so I don't want to write something up for other developers, but if someone could make a paragraph or two geared toward potential developers with useful links to videos/tutorials/resources etc that would be great.


P.S., that's the reason I DIDN'T post it here. Everyone in Spring wants to be democratic about everything and break everything down from 500 different perspectives and that is why NOTHING EVER HAPPENS. In case you missed it that's the reason I got so fed up and posted this in the first place, nobody ever DOES anything because they're afraid they'll upset someone who's a tightass about the "right" way to portray spring.

[knorke]

wow MASSIVE fail right there.

some new players in #main:

One or more downloaded spring 0.76 from
http://www.moddb.com/games/spring/downloads

Rest wants to play "War Evolution" or "Expand & Exterminate"

[Hobo Joe]

wow MASSIVE fail right there.

some new players in #main:

One or more downloaded spring 0.76 from
http://www.moddb.com/games/spring/downloads

Rest wants to play "War Evolution" or "Expand & Exterminate"

From my thread? O_o

I didn't even link to that and gave multiple links to current versions.

[knorke]

i dont know from where
wasnt related to your thread more to the general "Marketing Plan."
funny how not even modDB is updated and then the big bla about marketing.

[smoth]

AA was based on uberhack learn your history before lecturing me.

I am not mad, I am telling you why the discussion devolved into lol ba vs AA. Goons are not my audience, so I don't really care. You could have done a bit better to put the actual name of grts which was my only point I cared about.

As far as spring being an OTA remake again first demo of the engine was some weird early warfare demo. They did show off OTA AND swta so it was not a remake but and engine which could run OTA content. Also to say it is all about OTA speaks on your ignorance of the engine. Many many patches have been made non-a projects.

So while I do recognize and did recognize your post as from the perspective of a common spring player do not spout that ignorant nonsense here as fact about the engine and expect me to not disagree.

Again not mad just trying staighten out your understanding of my motivation. I grow tired if you people and your perception that I am somehow jellous of the *a games. I don't care about them beyond the fact that I dislike their stolen content from an ethical perspective. But of course every time I object you lot decry "you jelly smoth."

I had 3k hits yesterday on my release post at moddb. That made me happy, even if they never play it I thought that was neat-o. You and many others have this imaginary concept that I am in some sort of highlander there can be only one thing. I really don't care who is number 1, I care how I am doing for me this is about personal bests not about fighting for public opinion. So get over yourself because that sort of veiw is unhealthy. Also in case you forgot, I and the rest of the projects help each other. I simply do not help ba because it does not need or want my help because of it's very nature.

[AF]

Anti *A advertisement sentiment is not aimed at eradicating all *A advertisement.

Anti *A advertisement sentiment is aimed at eradicating *A advertisement that pushes out all other advertisement.

Normally *A advertisement gains such a huge overpowering proportion of what its included in that the obvious conclusion in some of them, is that either Arm or Core have a factory to build Zakus, and that on some maps, they have a special Tron cameo with cheap units that look like marbles/balls, every now and again a tie fighter swoops by to salute everybody, and then they spend the rest of the game fighting with flash tanks big berthas and krogoths. No other units are ever used.

That and have you all forgotten that a large chunk of the free games community wont touch us with a barge poll for fear of Atari stomping all over them for distributing TA IP? Advertising *A encourages that kind of behaviour, and muddling up *A with non*A taints those projects and cheapens them, while making the engine as a whole sound like a bargain bin 100 free games in one outfit.

So no, *A should not be the focus. If anything advertising non*A games or *A games, makes no difference since they all end up playing BA anyway. Its not because BA is special amongst the content here. Its not because its the greatest game. Its because its the 'primary mod', and the community is not large enough for any other game to reach critical mass given our attitude and culture. Tools like Rapid etc have helped a lot, but we still have a large TA fan contingent who play because its all they get, and existing BA playerbase.

Advertise Kernel Panic. Do not advertise the engine itself. Any other games you can do a seperate push, this should maximise chances, but I still think until a proper singleplayer system is devised its pointless as most will come away baffled as to how to start.

That Spring SP tool was great, it was VB6 sadly, and its no longer maintained, but a modern version of it, a standalone tool, that ran fullscreen and could be styled for each game, would be a massive help. But until such a tool exists, what we have right now isn't anywhere near good enough, it's all functional but limited, or hemmed in behind a big barrier of 'which what foo', or part of a lobby project with a near indefinite ETA

[knorke]

oh lol that whole "Spring needs Fullscreen SP" that comes up all the time is so fail it makes me rage irl.
What the fuck would that SP even consists of?
There just will NEVER be a complete campaign for ANY Spring game, with cut scenes, briefings and all that.
There is no SP content because it takes long to make and has little replay value.
A campaign should consist of at least 20 missions.
Even with the old missions you would hardly get 20 missions and you would have to count "throw the krog v4.5" as a mission too.
For Skirmish vs AI just use a lobby or something like KP use.
With multiplayer stuff (maps,mods, a lobby) content makers see their stuff get played or used and thats cool. Nobody wants to spend MONTHS to make a singleplayer thing with all the bla because you would never get feedback.
Spring is multiplayer to the core and thats it. Some tagged on missions or tutorials (really support those), but the main part is multi player.

*A advertisement that pushes out all other advertisement.

The *a mods do not even have a website! I have never seen a BA advertise video. All the *a videos on youtube are done by players not *a devs. Thinking about it, BA is the only that has actual players. Like people who just play the game and are not developing or balanceing it. Mostly unheard of in other games.
Spring = BA + personal sandboxes.
Also on replays.adune.nl, its all BA and very other *a replays. It would be supereasy for players of other mods to upload their replays to get some recognition but that never happens.
And it surely is not the OTA bonus that made BA big. From what I've read most people in the OTA forum actually do not like Spring and continue to play OTA. Those people could play SupCom or TA3D anyway.
*a games are the only complete Spring games atm for the "mainstream gamer."
Only KP, gundamRTS and S44 are on a similiar level of completeness/polishness and all three are too special to appeal to a broad audience. For gundamrts smoth has said multiple times he is making the game mostly for himself/other gundam fans or w/e and yes that shows.
And well, S44 zoomed out looks like KP zoomed in.

[Johannes]

Chickens defenses for different games are quite nice SP. And has replay value too. Just that newbs might not realise such thngs exist atm.

[knorke]

chicken defense is not exactly "single player."
it basically is skirmish vs AI and also often played in coop. so does not warrant its own SP launcher imo.

[Johannes]

But skirmish vs AI should be made as simple as possible, be it normal game or vs chicken.

[luckywaldo7]

oh lol that whole "Spring needs Fullscreen SP" that comes up all the time is so fail it makes me rage irl.
What the fuck would that SP even consists of?
There just will NEVER be a complete campaign for ANY Spring game, with cut scenes, briefings and all that.
There is no SP content because it takes long to make and has little replay value.
A campaign should consist of at least 20 missions.
Even with the old missions you would hardly get 20 missions and you would have to count "throw the krog v4.5" as a mission too.
For Skirmish vs AI just use a lobby or something like KP use.
With multiplayer stuff (maps,mods, a lobby) content makers see their stuff get played or used and thats cool. Nobody wants to spend MONTHS to make a singleplayer thing with all the bla because you would never get feedback.
Spring is multiplayer to the core and thats it. Some tagged on missions or tutorials (really support those), but the main part is multi player.

*A advertisement that pushes out all other advertisement.

The *a mods do not even have a website! I have never seen a BA advertise video. All the *a videos on youtube are done by players not *a devs. Thinking about it, BA is the only that has actual players. Like people who just play the game and are not developing or balanceing it. Mostly unheard of in other games.
Spring = BA + personal sandboxes.
Also on replays.adune.nl, its all BA and very other *a replays. It would be supereasy for players of other mods to upload their replays to get some recognition but that never happens.
And it surely is not the OTA bonus that made BA big. From what I've read most people in the OTA forum actually do not like Spring and continue to play OTA. Those people could play SupCom or TA3D anyway.
*a games are the only complete Spring games atm for the "mainstream gamer."
Only KP, gundamRTS and S44 are on a similiar level of completeness/polishness and all three are too special to appeal to a broad audience. For gundamrts smoth has said multiple times he is making the game mostly for himself/other gundam fans or w/e and yes that shows.
And well, S44 zoomed out looks like KP zoomed in.

If there is a specific point you made in this post, I cannot find it :S

[knorke]

is there a specific point in this thread

[PicassoCT]

i plan sp missions for the jw, but they are last on a long list :)

Srsly, why not make another thread: Everybody gives in his daily visited websites- you agree on three or four, that nearly everybody has on the list, and start a spring-campaign there. Be honest (state the pathfinding issues at the moment), but also dont be shy, remember other companys have advertised for stuff that never existed (EA-C&C-Screenshots), never got real and still has a lot of fans (if you kick the tara, what remains is gameplay & fun, and there spring is even with every commercial title available)

SO if you want to add. DO IT. DO IT. DO IT NOW. JUST DO IT. DO IT.

[smoth]

yes that shows.

How do you mean, it would be impossible otherwise

[AF]

Oh I don't care about campaigns, people seem to have plenty of momentum to do that on their own. And yes we can use a lobby, but thats not what people are expecting when they come here, its not the easiest route, its not obvious, and as far as new people are concerned, it doesnt exist because its not advertised.

They shouldnt have to load up the multiplayer to find singleplayer, how ridiculous a notion is that, it's incredibly counter intuitive. Its like wanting to open a mortgage so you have to waltz to the back of the deadly killer loan shark department of the bank, with no signs telling you its there, are you going to explore on a whim hoping to find the golden egg? Or will you give up and go to the shiny Glest building with Singleplayer advertised in the window next door?

Yes it will always be the most powerful route, but there's a whole class of people who are utterly uninterested in multiplayer gaming, and a whole class then of people who need singleplayer to practise before they'll go online.

We know this because we have heard this directly from people. You forget you weren't here when we had no singleplayer of any kind, you don't remember the demand there was for AIs, or the demand there was for singleplayer tools before they were implemented in the lobbies. Heck we have continuous accounts of people abandoning spring on their first try trying to get into it.

As for fullscreen, there's also the added point of polish and proffesionalism. Why do you think Z made his frontend? Why do you think other developers bothered to touch it? It is afterall a multiplayer hardcore game no?I've been here since the start and know first hand from personal experience that singleplayer is huge.

For all the downloads of maps and AIs we have nevermind the engine, the actual contribution in terms of lobby players is but a drop in the ocean.

I'd go as far as saying that a springlobby shortcut with a command line param in the start menu to open it up on the singleplayer tab on start would be a huge boost. If such a commandline parameter exists then you be fools for not telling people about it!

[Hobo Joe]

@ Smoth and AF

For starters, no I did not give a detailed history of Spring because it's totally unnecessary. You both go pissy about how I advertised *A but if you actually read the post you'll find out that I made a very conscious effort to mention it AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. I ONLY mentioned it as A) The driving force of Spring from past to present and B) the most popular mod. Both of which are 100% true and EVERYONE here knows it. I did not push out other games with *A advertising or overshadow everything with *A, I made it a point to NOT do that. But AF, I am not going to just make a blatantly false Spring advertisement by excluding *A. If you want to advertise a specific game, BE MY GUEST, i think that would be fantastic and nobody seems to care enough to do it, although they sure care enough to rage on the forums about it for YEARS. If you want Spring advertised with the exclusion of *A, do it yourself.

I want other mods to get exposure just as much as BA. Yes, I play BA almost exclusively because I was and still am a huge TA fan, but I recognize the merit of the other games as well as the huge amount of work that was put into them, and exposure of any and all Spring games is a win-win for everyone. I think all the devs should be rewarded for the work they put into their games, and I think people should be able to enjoy it.

Yes BA uses copyrighted content but it doesn't try to hide it, it doesn't try to sell it, and it's not exactly stealing any big bux from Atari.


Also what knorke said.


AF do you ever do anything besides complain on the forums?

[PicassoCT]

If its not complete, than just dont call it that way. There are plenty of enthusiast out there ready to take every comercial crap with a cup and swallow it- name the fact, call it Spring Beta, or a Mod Alpha, and you will get company.

Also a reminder Program would be cool. Sort of If you disliked this program, but would like to check back later, when
() pathfinding is fixxed.
() sound works optimum.
() graphics have improved significantly.
() a full singleplayer with tutorial exists.
() better anything.
() time of your choice has past.
.... until then keep my map and mod files around, and regularly look if this demands are met.

Let the users select which point is to be met in the future, before they want to be offered a new installer again. If the users have a voice to vote, this would also kill this sort of threads, because that little tool would spit out the statistics you longed for.

[AF]

AF do you ever do anything besides complain on the forums?

Yes, I did a LOT of things.

List of things AF did in the spring community:

• The logo (redesigned and updated twice with a few concept art series and a v4 on the way )
• Installer artwork and icons
• Logo base Artwork for numerous people
• A spring screensaver
• Engine patches including team coloured nanospray etc
• 2 attempts at a site redesign
• A developers spring engine site
• Stamper tool
• 2 Skirmish AIs (NTai - 5 years, Shard - 1 year)
• A multiplayer lobby project of 3 years
• 7 Lobby bots ( Cookiebot, Modbot, Banbot, Slurbot, Obscenebot, iBot, Triviabot)
• I maintained portable TASServer downloads for a while a few years ago
• Improved Metalmaker AI
• Original Dynamic music AI
• Cursor AI
• 3 Fusion reactor units remodelled for Core XTA
• Several modified widgets
• JNI unitsync bindings
• Spring download site on darkstars.co.uk

And a lot more I cant be arsed typing out ;]

Anyways, dont advertise spring as an engine, especially not with BA, because then your tarring ALL of spring projects with the TA stigma. Advertise the engine to developers, or advertise individual games mentioning they run on the spring engine, and provide links to where they can find more. Its far mroe effective, it gets them engrossed finding out about what they could be playing, makign them far mroe likely to actually play it