Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 12 Dec 2005, 19:18

shhh! im trying to convince someone to make another map like that (awesome map btw ^-^)

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 14 Dec 2005, 02:47

Caydr, can core kbot lab pls get 2 units like these?

http://www.planetannihilation.com/corep ... p?id=80135 <-- WE NEED THIS BADLY!

http://www.planetannihilation.com/corep ... p?id=80699 <-- possible kbot counter to teh UB3R maverick?

Mavs are broken. Core has nothing in lv 2 kbot factory that is remotely as powerful as the maverick, no to mention cost and build time.

Lets see, mix a much too much damage gun on a really fast unit and you have the maverick.

I would like to be able to use something else other than vehicles to counter mavericks.

Das Bruce · Post by **Das Bruce** » 14 Dec 2005, 03:10

Back in the day they were supposed to have a strong weapon but be very weakly armoured, they should go back to that.

Archangel of Death · Post by **Archangel of Death** » 14 Dec 2005, 08:55

Ok, why in the world would we want to add something that looks exactly like a fido with different guns and a supped up AK in the Core kbot lab. Well, at least the supped up AK wouldn't stick out like an arm commander at an all-Krogoth party.

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 14 Dec 2005, 16:24

For k-bots, use The Can against the Mav, if you can't trap the mav and bombard with Mortys. Also, consider aircraft.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 14 Dec 2005, 17:17

mavs are can openers.

Pxtl · Post by **Pxtl** » 14 Dec 2005, 20:18

Forboding Angel wrote:mavs are can openers.

Really? I find cans to be a little tougher - they don't win enough to justify their sluggish speed, but they seem to win. Okay, have you tried Pyros?

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 14 Dec 2005, 20:51

More new Spring versions than AA versions, bet you didn't see this one coming

I may reduce Maverick's weapon damage a bit. I don't want to reduce their HP too much though. In my ideal world, Mavericks are half-mechs, sort of like a little brother to a Razorback. 5 or 6 mavs equal 1 razorback, something like that. Their costs are quite high as well, and they have a decent amoung of HP. This is to balance the fact that core gets the superior Krogoth. Think of them as a commando (not the core commando unit, but a commando, badass, heavily armed, tough to kill, etc, but rare and hard to get).

Of course, that's just my impresion of how they should be. Probably not any good... dunno. tired. I'll do something with them.

For the sake of it, here's a compararison between Mav and Can:

Code: Select all

Maverick
	BuildCostEnergy=12180;
	BuildCostMetal=689;
	BuildTime=18384;
	MaxDamage=1400;
	MaxVelocity=1.49;

Can
	BuildCostEnergy=8722;
	BuildCostMetal=522;
	BuildTime=11734;
	MaxDamage=3500;
	MaxVelocity=0.9;

Maverick has a stronger weapon, but in direct combat I don't think it would make up for a 2100 unit armor deficiency, especially with their costs being as high as they are.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 15 Dec 2005, 01:29

umm, mavs can stay out of can range easily and just pot shot them. Even if the mav stood still it would kill the can before the can could kill the mav.

You're balancing a Level 2 against a level 3??!?! Wtf?? That is borked.

That's nice that you think they should be that way, but you might wanna balance them so that core kbots can stop them. As it is, if my enemy uses mavs I'[m pretty much screwed if I went kbots.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 15 Dec 2005, 01:38

btw, you forgot that the mav fire faster. Even a little differance can change a lot.

Look at the peewee vs the ak

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 15 Dec 2005, 01:42

Fast Kbots with strong weapons should never have decent range. It's just a micromanagement nightmare if nothing I have can attack a maveric because he'll just run away and potshot me. The cocept is harrassment units, and they are powerful worth about 10 times whatever health they have, expecially for defencive purpouses.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 15 Dec 2005, 02:03

oh btw, pyro's get blown up in 2 shots. Do you know what kind of range the mav has?

throw a horde of pyros against 4 mavs. I will take bets on what wins

Decimator · Post by **Decimator** » 15 Dec 2005, 02:36

The problem with that sort of thinking, Caydr, is that you almost never see a krogoth, and therefore they have no bearing on balance. But think about how often you see mavs...

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 15 Dec 2005, 02:53

OK i just conduicted a few tests

I have the demo if no one believes me

1 mav vs 1 can

can wins with a sliver of health

5 mavs vs 5 cans

mavs win, 3 standing, all slightly wounded

3 wounded mavs vs 1 sumo

Sumo got owned with 1 mav left standing somewhat damaged

20 pyros vs 5 mavs

3 mavs left standing, all pyros got owned

50-60 mavs vs 90 morties.

THe morties got slaughtered.

If you don't believe me I have the demo, you can watch for yourself

Das Bruce · Post by **Das Bruce** » 15 Dec 2005, 03:07

Whats the cost ratio on those battles?

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 15 Dec 2005, 03:12

2160 for 5 cans metal
43610 en for 5 cans

60900 for 5 mavs EN
3445 metal for 5 mavs

mavs cost a little bit more, but they own way too much to balance their cost.

I have no idea how much pyros cost.

Caydr · Post by **Caydr** » 15 Dec 2005, 05:23

1.3 final changelog

Code: Select all

1.25a --> 1.3

 "Samson", "Slasher" energy costs increased by 50%
 "Samson", "Slasher" HP reduced by 100
 "Samson", "Slasher" maxvelocity reduced by 10%
 "Samson", "Slasher" rotation speed reduced by 100
 "Samson", "Slasher" damage versus "raider"
  armorclass reduced by about 30%
 "Samson", "Slasher" damage versus all other units
  reduced by about 10%
 "Shellshocker", "Wolverine" weapon velocity
  increased 15 and 10 respectively, hopefully
  allowing them to reach their maximum range
 "Shellshocker", "Wolverine" weapon damage increased
  to 170, 160 (130, 115)
 Core "Necro" should no longer get stuck after
  rezzing units
 Core "Sumo" cloaking cost when moving increased to
  225 (100); Cost when stationary remains at 75
 AI compatibility improved by making "Tech Forge"
  structures in the F variant seperate structures
  from regular factories
 Repulsor builings now require 1250 energy per tick
  to operate, regardless of whether they're even
  deflecting anything or not
 Repuslor building metal cost increased 50%
 Advanced Underwater Storage buildings removed,
  bringing the total unit count to 396
 Maverick costs increased very slightly
 Maverick firepower decreased very slightly
 Storage building capacities tweaked
 New variant included, "-B" for Barebones: This
  version includes a more conservative selection of
  units for people who prefer a smaller unit count

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/ta-a ... p?download

I think that the B variant will be popular with people who just want to play plain old TA but on Spring, with fixed up balance in a few places. Basically it's identical to OTA gameplay, except where a compromise had to be found between OTA gameplay and the reality of how Spring handles certain things (plasma cannons, for one). Arm has no krogoth-like unit, and in general things are as they were. I'm hoping this will help AA reach a broader appeal...

If anyone has a suggestion for other AA "mutators", PM or email me... if they're good, and not a hella lot of work, I'll include them in a future version.

Dwarden · Post by **Dwarden** » 15 Dec 2005, 19:34

hehe so maybe one day we get -X (eXtended) version with even more units and structures :) for these who like variety :)))

{me hides to evade incoming projectiles}

Drexion · Post by **Drexion** » 15 Dec 2005, 20:21

Please do not take the following as me claiming that mavericks are not good, I built them so they had to be good for something...

I have to challenge the validity of Forboding's test (which I assume played a role in Caydr's decision to make the damage do 92% of old damage and cost 6.25% more metal). The one thing his test did which was not fair was that he did not take resources into question at all. I mean, I could build 1.6 cans for every maverick in version 1.25(in terms of metal/energy/time)...and yet his test was 5 cans against 5 mavericks. For a decent test, that would have to be 5 mavericks versus 8 cans. I doubt the outcome would be the same. Same for his morty test, he had 50 mavs versus 90 mortys... I'm not sure of the exact cost ratio here but i'm sure 90 mortys cost a heck of a lot less than 50 mavs.

Frankly, given the current cost versus usefulness of mavericks in 1.3, I have started moving away from the unit(it tended to be a part of my force mixture before). Led to some interesting new tactics actually, so I don't care...But I, for one, do not think the maverick was overpowered enough that it deserved BOTH a 6.25% cost increase as well as a 8% damage reduction. *maybe* one of the two depending on how a test as I proposed above works out, but definitely not both nerfs in my opinion.

Thats my thought on the issue anyhow.

-Drexion

p.s. I'll speak to Forboding and try some tests with version 1.30 on mavs versus others....

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 15 Dec 2005, 20:44

so Caydr AA-B is OTA with VERY slight changes and some visual enhancements? if so W00T! not only would it be great to play it would ahve a good player base (at the beginning at the least) off ppl who think it is a variant of AA ^-^

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation: Spring[old]

Counter for Mav?

Maverick