Eternal Annihilation (v1.04)

[Hackfresser]

i think T1 arty should be tweaked.
the range should be increased a little. microing vs hlts is just bothersome right now.
also their role vs mobile units could use a little buff, like lowering their trajectory or increasing missile speed so they will actually hit something thats not stationary

mixing tanks with arty in an open battle should be good
right now its bad

[Pxtl]

@Hackfresser - if you get T1 arty shooting ground mobiles, you get the SAMtruck problems all over again. A range buff would be great, but I wouldn't buff their anti-mobile capabilities. A more important buff if you want to encourage mixing them into your regular forces would be speed - right now they take a lifetime to get into firing position, and a second lifetime to get out of it when the enemy comes to kick their asses.

That said, with the samson/slasher sightdistance nerf, how are people spotting targets for their artillery?

[Johannes]

You do realise arty moves faster than samson for example? And seeing targets for arty wont really be a problem, you dont even need the exact position for them to fire. You can see turrets or at least where their laser comes from easily.
Why do you keep talking like you know how this game works pxtl... You're always full of suggestions and ideas but none of it is based on good playing experience.

[Pxtl]

@Johannes - have you ever actually *used* the unit? Sure, it has a decent top speed, but its acceleration is the pits. The damned thing can't get out of its own way. In actual gameplay, not just looking at modinfo, this means that your artillery is constantly bumbling around a screen behind your forward group, even if you assigned htem all the same move action. And you're seriously suggesting that manual targetting all your fire is a good solution?

[Gota]

Oo...
Send scouts to scout out targets?It's a radical new concept but i think it might work.

[Pxtl]

Since we're talking about an artillery unit which is used to blast defenses (HLTs in particular) it means we're back at manual clicking since your scouts will last less than a second.

So yeah, I'll be building a nearby radar tower.

[Johannes]

Acceleration has ~nothing to do with how quickly it gets to a firing position, which you said to be the problem... Low acceleration is a problem only when they are in combat.

Ofc targetting with them manually makes them better, that way they will fire to targets that wont move while the shot is flying, and to maximise aoe, and to fire in front of targets to be able to shoot from farther back. Are you seriously saying this is not true or somehow impossible to pull off?

Yes I've *used* arty. Much more correctly than you ever have, it seems.

[Pxtl]

Of course manual targetting is important, but being able to auto-target is also important. A unit that is exclusively useful in micro situations had better be freaking awesome (like the bombers) or else the better solution is just to spam moar stumpeh.

And acceleration is always important because Spring's pathfinder is dodgy. Unless you're dealing with air units or a single unit on an open landscape, acceleration issues will mean that a unit moves way, way slower than top speed most of the time as it gets stuck in traffic or simply has to manoever around obstacles.

Simple problem: I have group of stumpies, samstrucks, and arties. I order them to go to X. Stumpies and samtrucks arrive first, arties arrive long after combat is over. The reason is irrelevant. The point is that if you want the arty to be intermingled into your normal unit-groups, you need to fix the acceleration issue. If you don't want them to be intermingled, then don't fix it. How is this controversial?

[Johannes]

You issue some really clustered move orders then or something... They should arrive pretty much at the same point as samsons, with sensible customformation use. Maybe on some lumpy map it is always as you say, but that's an exception not rule. Mostly arty should come to the place you want to bombard straight from fac, when it is pretty much that single unit in open landscape.

And if this battle is gonna be over soon after your stumpies arrive, yes, you should get more stumpies then. Just wait for your artys to come if you invested in that! And you talk as if stumpies and samsons would move at similar speeds to each other...

[Hackfresser]

i dont get why poeple see sam trucks as an issue... lots of poeple mass them as an anti-ground unit, but fail to see how the unit is just bad at that. stumpies own them HARD. sam trucks counter beamers, air units, scout cars and commanders, but they lose to the most important unit in the game

so i dont see how buffing the t1 arty would create a similar "problem" in any way. sure, arty has twice the dps/m, but only half the hp/m. enabling it to actually HIT something thats not a building wouldnt break anything imo

on a sidenote: i agree with pxtl that arty is effectively less mobile then sam trucks.

[Pxtl]

Honestly, my only complaint about the SAMtruck is that it wears too many hats, making it hard to balance, and it renders the artillery vehicle redundant. Not that it's OP or anything. If you look, that's why most of the BA-forks are tweaking out the SAMtruck.

You look at vehicle players complaining about poor AA abilities, because their AA unit is also their spotter and a light-artillery unit... so logically it's not as good AA as a dedicated AA unit... but you still get grousing that the Bladewings are OP.

[psihoxxx]

NAVAL
i still belive that they dont really need plasma batery but floating laser towers to defend against hovers...
dont tweek navals with underwater dgun or try to make naval battles too much like land ones... its good that they are different ... its also good that ships have plasma shields and long range plasma canon to hurt land...
m cost for long range... dont know lets say 1.5 of bertha cost?
scout are just fine... they are scouts and aa, no need to buff them

ARTY
leave t1 arty as it is... its ok... its used to bombard and save other units plus its t1 - t1 arty is meant to bombard an established t1 line ... it good for that so no need to power it up (its artilery not a multi purpose unit) ... you just need to learn to combine units better

as for auto target... if u want auto target invest in radar... duh :)

UNIT SPEED
a nice tweak idea ... when units are in group (ctrl+1 ... ) they move at the same speed... this way you dont loose aa or radar jamer cover, arty doenst stay behind to be raped etc. ... i really miss this option in spring games - if u want units to move at diferent speeds u put them in different groups


as for battles... if the battle is done with stumpy and samson they why invet in arty in the first place? if 'charging' the line makes you loose too many units the invest in arty.... that's why its called a strategy game... if u want arcade go play halo wars

[Pxtl]

@ psihoxxx

You ever tried to use light arty to take out an HLT? The range difference is so small that the arty can easily get pushed into HLT range as they get into position, and there's no way to have a line of units defending the arty... and since arties accelerate so slowly, they can't retreat at the sight of the counterattack.

100-200 more range would make them perfecly useful, and still firmly plant them in L1.

And yeah, I really don't see what problem the floating plasma is meant to solve. UW d-gun I like, though. I'd rather just see an ROF buff on the FHLT or a price-cut or something so that, as you said, you get a defensive way to rape hovers (and, to a lesser extent, corvettes).

[Johannes]

Arty gets pushed into hlt range only if you suck.
And there is a defensive way to deal with hovers, corvettes.

But I guess not much point in responding to you, you still won't admit you don't understand this game :/

Psihoxx: ctrl-rightclick to move your group of units, and they will move at same speed. I'd personally hate it if ctrl-groups would always be limited in speed.

[Pxtl]

I realize 'vettes beat hovers, but it isn't a huge margin, and the FHLT has been kind of begging for a good purpose ever since it got a range nerf.

Johannes, I know you love tediously microing every single action of every single unit, but if I wanted that i'd play StarCraft. If I click a group of 4 artillery units and tell them to attack target X, and the back ones push the front ones into the line of fire, then something's wrong. Yes, you can mitigate it with micro, but the point is that you shouldn't have to.

[Johannes]

Actually I'm much more an economic player than someone to micro my units very carefully. I just hate the mindset that something that requires care and attention to use is bad and enough reason to change balance.

Why shouldnt you have to micro arty? Should you not have to micro stumpies against gators, jeffies vs jeffies, janus vs levelers, rockos vs rockos, etc. etc. either? In all of those situations (including arty) you don't necessarily need to micro, to get some effect, but ofc for maximum effectivity you need good control. And to micro you need to divert your attention which is a strategic choice.

You just have totally wrong mindset to talk about rts as far as I see... When you feel you shouldnt need to learn the most basic skills.

[Pxtl]

I learn them, I just don't find them fun. Remember fun? This is a game.

[momfreeek]

Why do you keep talking like you know how this game works pxtl... You're always full of suggestions and ideas but none of it is based on good playing experience.

But I guess not much point in responding to you, you still won't admit you don't understand this game :/

You just have totally wrong mindset to talk about rts as far as I see...

None of this is the least bit useful to the discussion. I'm sorry, but such comments just make you seem rude and full of yourself.

I just hate the mindset that something that requires care and attention to use is bad and enough reason to change balance.

Changes designed to improve the game experience should not be automatically rejected on the grounds that they alter balance, should they? Perhaps being open minded to consider such changes would be better for progress than being stuck in your 'mindset'?

[Wombat]

fun ? FUN ?! SPRING IS LIFE !!!1@@!@#1@#!!!1 how dare u talk like that to top spring player

remember, if ur opinion differs from johannes, u r wrong sir

[Gota]

Its one thing to talk about general game design and its another thing to offer balance changes for a game you hardly play and even if you do, not in games that actually stress test the balance.

Here is a good rule of thumb.If you suck in 1v1 stay out of balance discussions.
All game balancers in commercial games play the game they are balancing and are proficient in it and also are attentive to the best players.
That's how you achieve good balance...
You DEGRADE the balance by listening to newbies that just want to change something they don't yet master or people who hardly play and are trying to make the game into something completely different.

Johan has an excellent point cause Pxtl keeps giving balance advices yet hardly plays BA and is not at all proficient at it and same here since the changes in EA are changes to BA to supposedly solve balance issues(at least partially for that reason).