Is Spring for me?

[Tor]

Hello everybody, Just found SPRING, great project going here
sorry for the huge post!

Spring looks to have many of my needs covered. I┬┤v no programming skills, so looking for a game engine base for prototyping game ideas (RTS) that is non-programmer friendly, or at least allowing for a progressive learning curve.
At present i'm focused on getting it down as straightforward and simple as possible. (For example between unit parts and terrain types, my present design only needs 7 if you count the bullet)

But, before I dig in deeper would like to know if there is any technical limitations of the engine that would make me discard Spring.

a) Can you assemble units in game or prior to the battle?
ex. you have 3 sets of 3engines, 3hulls, 3turrets, and you can combine any of the parts to produce one single unit (armor, gun, velocity rotation speed etc.. all would be derived from your design automatically in to a persistent game unit.

b) Can you have 2 (or more maps) working in tandem or corresponding to different phases strategical/ tactical?
like one strategical overview map where grand scale movement would be performed and a 2┬║ one where tactical play would be resolved.

Another option having one only map but with different "sets" of gameplay, ex. One 8196"px map in zoomed out view; camera is fixed to top-down, time is 10 times faster, and units are combined in groups (army's) orders can only be assign to groups, if to opposing groups meet camera zooms in to 1024"px area and tactical play would be resolved - while in the background the other groups would still be moving (according the the orders given) so that reinforces might arrive to the same tactical battle thats going on.

c) Is "Turn-Base Simultaneous" play possible? this one is not so important but still would like to know.

so is SPRING for me?

PS: Alternatives would be Unity3D witch would require a much deeper learning curve (browser play would be nice do ) an Construct (scirra) a 2d open source project like this one (hurray!!) still in beta and python friendly. witch appear┬┤s to me being the best chance at learning a programming language if ever..

[Pxtl]

Basic TA-style RTS stuff in Spring is easy and built-in. Anything else requires code using Lua, the embedded scripting language.

Spring is designed for a single landscape map. Modifying the landscape in real-time can be expensive and difficult, but is doable if you want to reuse the space for multiple maps.

If you can express your ideas using that single landscape, then it can work.

Outside-of-game editing is pretty far out. People are working on it, but this is _hard_. Plus, user-customized units are tricky-but-doable and have lots of gotchas.

For your multi-map ideas, you could have the "gameplay map" implemented on the actual Spring RTS landscape and then render your Strategic Map entirely in Lua GUI... but you'd have a problem with the fact that changing your "gameplay map" into your different gameplay maps would be hard. There are hacks that would work, but they all have drawbacks.

c) is doable, depending on what you want.

[Satirik]

no spring is not for you

[hoijui]

i kind of have to agree with satirik, but...
if you want something as awesome as spring, plus all the things you described, and want that to be moddable without requireing coding skills, you will not find it.
in short: if you have 7 or 200 unit types does not mater so much, like using special stuff. you have quite a lot of special stuff, of which a lot, is practically impossible without having any code.
you should probably first learn to code, and then start to create your mod. or forget about all the fancy stuff, and do only what is possible without coding, with those 7 units.
if you want to see what is possible without coding in spring, just look at BA.

[SirArtturi]

regardless pxtl praising the engine and being optimistic, I will be more realistic and say no. Especially what comes to the mapping part...

[Forboding Angel]

It sounds to me that you want to do some things that aren't currently done...

Pxtl makes the out of game work sound harder than it actually is. Tbh once you've done it a few times it's pretty straightforward when you have your workflow down.

Long story short, most of what you want can be done, but you would almost definitely have to learn lua to do so.

[Pxtl]

It sounds to me that you want to do some things that aren't currently done...

Pxtl makes the out of game work sound harder than it actually is. Tbh once you've done it a few times it's pretty straightforward when you have your workflow down.

Long story short, most of what you want can be done, but you would almost definitely have to learn lua to do so.

I've been thinking how you'd do the "overland/detail" battlefield... you'd be restricted to running one battle at a time, and you'd either need a map made up of islands (with orders/camera locked to the current battlefield isalnd) or you'd need to do some serious landscape mutation.

Either way, though, actually running many detail battlefields in parallel wouldn't happen unless you wrote that part 100% in lua and used the Spring landscape for the main map (which would be a huge waste, imho).

But really, I can't see a clean solution for it.

[JohannesH]

For the map part I don't see why you wouldn't just have 1 big (huge) map.

But mostly you can do a lot of special stuff, but for that you need to learn how write Lua code. Otherwise you're kinda restricted, if you can't even modify other peoples Luas to your needs.

[Tor]

Thank you all.

I understand learning to code will be essencial down the line. But i┬┤m the type that nees to see some results along the learning part, and spring seems to provide it out of the box.
Not sure if lua is what i want/ need for the future.
Looking to the options c++, Java or Python seem more future proof. Anyway guess the deciding factor is less the language and more the resources help availabble.

[AF]

The chances of lua being removed from the engine or replaced at the moment or in the future, are so small as to be unworthy of consideration.

You are more likely to be hit on the head and killed by a falling meteorite

[Pxtl]

The chances of lua being removed from the engine or replaced at the moment or in the future, are so small as to be unworthy of consideration.

You are more likely to be hit on the head and killed by a falling meteorite

However, Lua API changes do happen... frequently at that. So you will have to maintain your Lua code as the engine devs make changes that demand it.

Either way - if you want to get something on screen ASAP, Spring is your engine. If you want to be able to do *exactly* what you want without compromising your vision? Absolutely not.

And if you want to make Spring games, you have to learn Lua. No ands, ifs, or buts. Those other languages are all well and good for other purposes (including the implementation of Spring itself), but Spring scripting is in Lua.

[Gota]

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2008/06/r ... eaths.html

[AF]

This assumes a classic style setup with a shared spring install that is regularly updated. This assumption is nonsensical.

There is nothing stopping the guy picking a spring revision and sticking to it in his game package when he releases his v1, and updating it as he can. He only needs deal with Lua API changes if he wants to use a newer engine version.

[SinbadEV]

the problem I see is that there really is no other option, outside of Spring, that would allow him to do what he wants here without implementing his own game from scratch... which I can guarantee will take more programming than spring... so I'd say spring is the best choice for him... unless someone can make a better suggestion (it's possible a commercially available engine would be better suited... but I wouldn't call that a better option for this fellow)

Another "thing" to mention is that most people don't work alone on "real" games anymore... if you are an artist who can create and texture models and UI elements and are willing to learn enough basic Lua to manage unit animation scripting, there is a good chance you'll be able to find someone willing to help you with the trickier programming hurdles to your game... in which case spring is not more or less suited to the task than anything else so I'd rather you help our cause...

[knorke]

all these (units consiting of pieces, stragetic/tactical view (planetwars was part browsergame, part spring battle), turn based play) have been but only really as techdemos.

Basically you will get a lot of answers as this:

For your multi-map ideas, you could have the "gameplay map" implemented on the actual Spring RTS landscape and then render your Strategic Map entirely in Lua GUI

Yes, this stuff is doable. Doable by maybe 5-20 spring people. NOT something for a first project with no programming/Lua background.

Either way - if you want to get something on screen ASAP, Spring is your engine.

Depends. I say No.
Modelling a unit in wings: Easily done, might not look pretty but who cares.
UVmapping the unit: UVwhat? Doable but a bit annoying.
Textureing: So-so. You need to know about alpha channels, different formats and stuff. Doable.
Putting it ingame with the use of Upspring: WTF SO MANY BUTTONS. Follow tutorial closely or you will fuck up.
Making a weapon for your unit: Just copy something from a different game that looks similiar to what you want and adjust values.
Animating the unit: Needs programming skill. Complicated.
Setting up a dozen of different files for weapons, armor classes etc: uhm...
Doing all these steps for every unit: Ask yourself, will it ever get done?

non-programmer friendly, or at least allowing for a progressive learning curve.

For making your own game, the learning curve is quite steep imo. Painting textures might be easy but what use is that if you can not get them ingame? Of course you can always look for projects that need ie sound effects or models if you already know how to make those and contribute there.

Overall a design with customizing units etc. seems too complicated for a first project. On any engine.
Strategy games is not a easy to make genre anway.

If you want to start making games, have a look at this:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=23480
See, after just one day I am already annoucing mah game and it took only a few hours to make.
If you make a game with this Love2d thing you will learn Lua while doing so. And other languages will not be unfamiliar because its all very similiar. Designs like gameloops, hitdetection will be usefull anyway in seeing what is possible and what not.

tl;dr Spring is NOT suitable as a "my first game" engine.

[Google_Frog]

All those ideas sound possible but only with a lot of coding.

Part choices on units is a proven concept which has not been expanded upon.

If I could edit the terrain texture I could implement strategic map with a massive zoom in for battles. I doubt a single map large enough for 'strategic' movements and tactical engagements would be possible in Spring. Alternatively Planet Wars could be used for TBS with RTT.

Lua is easy enough. You should be able to get away with not programming in lua as many people around here spontaneously spurt out gadgets whenever an idea strikes them, if you have content and the rest of the game you will be able to find someone to do extra feature programming. Lua is still needed for data files and animation but that just requires knowledge of the basic syntax.

What you want to do would be hard to do with Spring but (especially as a non-programmer) I think you would find implementing the ideas a lot harder in other engines that I know of.

2d open source project like this one

I wouldn't call Spring 2d.

[hoijui]

if you plan to get a programmer, you are better off learning Java or Python. if you want to be a game creator (using available engines), Lua is a better choice, as it is used by other game engines as well, and even if they use other scripting languages, they may be more similar to Lua then to Java or Python, especially in the way you are going to use them.

[zwzsg]

As Google Frog said: Your vision would require long arduous work to achieve in Spring, but even more in your alternative.

Also, it is unfair that say that you don't want to do any coding if using Spring, then mention using bare engine as alternative. I mean, c'mon, you know as well as us that that Unity3D isn't non-programmer friendly either!

[Tor]

great input!
I feel i should disclosure a better insight of the game. I pin point does first questions as does would influence the core game concept especially the assembling your own units part.
Anyway wont go any deep as i dont like to advertise vaporware

The game world, would be entirely made of cubes including the units (i┬┤m not after a realistic view) theres a story behind explaining the whys and hows. This would "facilitate" all the modeling, texturing, animations. As for weapons only need one (two if you count melle).
Looking at Spring (30K max units) i could make the relief of the terrain partially made of units, inert ones, as this would open wide the interacting possibility┬┤s with the "terrain"

My focus is on simple rules & vast possibility's. That said i┬┤m a graphical guy things must look/ feel right - I would never go after a realistic style as i feel could never achieve a satisfying result..and probably way above my possibility's-
would rather prefer to hand sketch all my graphics in black and white, maintaining a continuous style, than trying to use the full pallet of colors.

PS: My reference to Spring and Construct was about being open source/ community driven projects, i ┬┤m aware Spring is 3d :)
PSS: I┬┤m well aware of Unitys drawbacks.. on the other side cross-platform, browser integration seem could justify the "investment"

[zwzsg]

The game world, would be entirely made of cubes

The Spring maps are made of heightmap and a texture map, and as such vertical plane aren't achievable, and almost vertical cliff don't look right because of texture stretching. Of course, you could Lua your way around that, but again, extra coding.

entirely made of cubes including the units (i┬┤m not after a realistic view) theres a story behind explaining the whys and hows.

The Spheratist heresy must be cleansed!

on the other side cross-platform

Isn't Spring cross-platform too?