Xta unit stats and balance tweaks (input for next version)

[raaar]

one of the first things i mentioned in this thread:

- construction kbots and vehicles :wait for a few seconds on ready state instead of closing immediately. This will change balance, cause they will be more efficient at helping factories build lev1 units and making lines of dragon's teeth.

i meant them remaining ready to build a few seconds after they finished building/repairing/etc. Is this change ok?

[JohannesH]

one of the first things i mentioned in this thread:

- construction kbots and vehicles :wait for a few seconds on ready state instead of closing immediately. This will change balance, cause they will be more efficient at helping factories build lev1 units and making lines of dragon's teeth.

i meant them remaining ready to build a few seconds after they finished building/repairing/etc. Is this change ok?

what problem does it address, why change

[1v0ry_k1ng]

[quote="raaar"]first, a disclaimer: i didn't actually talk to Noruas about changing stuff other than the animations. So i guess that's up to him. Played some xta on the weekend but didn't find him. What are your opinions?

second:
- 10 cans almost cost twice as much as 10 pyros...being almost half as fast, it'd be ridiculous if they lost the fight. Would 5 cans beat 10 pyros?

- flashes and peewees. The story i've heard is that their almost 50% dps advantage over core counterparts (60 vs 40-45) should be compensated by the others slight range (20%) and hitpoint (<5%) advantage. Flash are also 15% faster than instigators. Maybe one should take into account core advantages on other tier1 units (which?). Is there any flat map where massing flashes isn't the best option for arm tier1? Especially on 1v1 (all that ground to cover and so few enemy commanders to do it).
A flash is 50% faster than a raider and has almost twice the dps... ouch.

There's a "Xta 9.585" patch thread that states
"Reduced damage rate of peewee from 60 to 50 per second."

Yet the PEEWEE_EMG weapon still does 60dps[/quote]

Yes, but raaar you are failing to take into account a fairly integral factor. the rule of talking about RTS balance is that the relavence of your argument is directly proportional to your ability at the game cubed:

strength of argument x (Ability at game)^3

strength of argument is a value between 1 and 10

ability at game is a value between 1 and 9000

sigh

In this case, babbles is pointing out that because you are noob and he is pro, the value of your oppinion is extremely low in comparison to his own, regardless of your application of statistics and logical argument.
he has, infact, defeated your argument with a single, unconstructive word: a 1/10 argument.

however, if we compare the relavence of your arguments:

BABBLES
1x (9000)^3 = 729000000000

RAAAAAR
10x (1)^3 = 10

we clearly see that babbles argument is, overall, 72900000000x stronger than yours, and you will therefore be ignored.

I hope this understanding will make your time spent on these forums a little less soul destroying :)

[babbles]

Yeah that and he keeps apply the same balancing technique; comparing 2 different units and declaring one is better than the other in a chosen situations therefore it is imba.

[TheMightyOne]

flash and pw were nurfed but they are still a bit op imo :/ it used to be balanced before the introduction of the new fx. the dmg reduction they need is small but the effect will be a great one.

[Noruas]

Cans vs. Pyros, Pyros slow moving fire can mostly hit cans but a group of cans can start their initial Dps before pyro even starts which gives it a huge skirmishing advantage against rockos and other tech 1, short ranged tech 2s, the ability to keep a few and trying not to lose with a run back to base repairs easily make cans a very effective combat unit. Pyros you shove down someones throat in hope of sabotaging their economy and buildings.

The strangest thing about xta is unit to unit balance concept is not really needed as it does not work real well, due to the fact that there is already no equation and mostly any relation between any of the units with the exception of tech 1 can not be found.

[FaerieWithBoots]

huh, Can a skirmish advantage vs rocko? is it a typo? they have identical ranges iirc.

[raaar]

i still think i'm right on this...but.....i see where this is going.

no point wasting my time.

have fun.

[JohannesH]

And I still think you gave no compelling reason to do any of those proposed changes

[babbles]

raaar, the reason we're mocking you is because you've basically come up, said a microed piro beats a can in combat and this should be altered.

All you've done is compare two different units with different roles and say because one beats the other in 1v1, the other should be made more powerful

[nightcold]

everything......

just change XTA to BA so people can play BA instead......that seems to be what the conservative crowd/ta worship wants here, also remove the better graphics and effects while your at it...XTA needs to look as bad as possible...just don't dont add any good looking models at all, we need to go on a crusade to remove any improvements to spring/XTA that might bring it up to modern standards and beyond, so it can just die off......

[raaar]

your counter arguments seem to be based on oversimplifying mine.

What would be a compelling reason?

for that change on construction units, the one that comes to mind is making sense: why should they close to open up a second later? Attack units usually remain in the "open" state for a few seconds before closing.

[knorke]

i meant them remaining ready to build a few seconds after they finished building/repairing/etc. Is this change ok?

biggest difference might that this makes them much stronger at repairing units, partly taking the commanders job. dunno if good or bad, probally nice if it gives players with dead commanders a chance to continue.

[Jools]

They close because they need to clean and refill the nanolathing tubes after a completed project. That takes a few seconds.

[FaerieWithBoots]

tbh, i think Cavedog added that just because it would look nice. See what would happen if you remove it.
*As factory assisters it will benefit the units with the smallest buildtime.
*Cons become better repairers in battle.
*Dragonteeth walls can be build much faster by other cons then the commander.
*Reclaiming attackers becomes easier. (Can 2 cons reclaim a flash when they wouldnt have to unfold ?)

Now, wich of the above behaviour is disirable and wich not?
Raaar made some legimit points here, lets just discuss those and keep the responses less in a "YOU FCKIN NOOB ", "L2P", or what not tone . Thank you.

[Jools]

Sure we can discuss the issue. I just think that it's more correct to have a setup time in the work process, this is a better model of what actually happens than to just have things build with a constant rate. At least from a logistics point of view.

[Gota]

How is it bad that cons have an opening sequance?why is it so disturbing?why does xta require this to be changed?u want cons to build and repair faster?why would that make xta better?

[FaerieWithBoots]

How is it bad that cons have an opening sequance?why is it so disturbing?why does xta require this to be changed?u want cons to build and repair faster?why would that make xta better?

exactly, i dont see how it effects the mod negativly.

[Pxtl]

How is it bad that cons have an opening sequance?why is it so disturbing?why does xta require this to be changed?u want cons to build and repair faster?why would that make xta better?

I don't play much XTA, but my usual problem with Con openings is that it becomes another unit attribute you have to keep track of. There is such a thing as too much differentiation, when many of the differentiations between units are hyper-trivial details like that. Unit X has a fast con opening, unit Y is instant, so you have to keep track of which unit you use for what construction operations. That isn't fun, that's tedious.

[pintle]

I already mentioned this in another thread: set a con to repeat, build a metal store, try and shoot the con through the nanoblock.


Now tell me removing unfold animation is a good idea.