NOTA 1.82

[Gota]

Many kbots suck ...rocko/storm thud/hammer are pure win while many others are just useless.
As for pw/ak,yes make them way faster that would not only make them useful for cost but also be fun as hell.
Also NOTA armor classes are very confusing,especially for newbies as there is 0 indication of them...I suggest adding armor of the unit in the description and the armor type its good against...could just be 2 numbers to take little space.
Ideally a widget would indicate these things.

Also destroyers...can you make like a sea unit that is good at killing destroyers for cost?ATM its just destroyer rush and each one costs tons and they die quickly when you have 2 groups of destroyers fighting...
When you lose 1 you've practicably lost the game.

[Gone]

Hammers/Thuds are indeed intended to be anti-kbot. It's true that the description of light artillery is misleading.

hummmm...well they seem to be great against well.......EVERYTHING!!!

i personaly would like 2 see ground armies less centered around thuds/hammers.....when the game is centered around long ranged units blasting each other/everything from a-far.....some of the strategy/magic is lost....games become more about who has the most thuds on the field..sure snipers/mortars give some extra harassment(due to superior ranges), but it just make thud spam any more strategic/tactical/fun/sexy

i would like 2 see the peewee/ak play more of a role in big battles....like give them alot more armor and speed(and even more dps), so they can rush Hammers/Thuds even in larger concentrations...this would add ant-Hammers/Thuds rushes into the and equation....and maybe even anti-peewee/ak int as well (zeus???)

@nightcold
Get over the range fact. It's a normal aspect of the game, besides i quite prefer longer bombarding ranges, it weakens the attacking force enough so you can destroy the rest. Though I found out from pepeampere that fleas can literally be rarely hit be a thud/ hammer line if it is far in radar view. That one flea distracting thuds led to my team's defeat added to the fact one of my team mates disconnected

Anyways there are several anti thuds/hammer units out there. Like others have said many have either play like most players or even refuse to use other units considering them obsolete. for instance interceptors play a huge role in downing air units with high amounts of armor. which can to some extent minimize damage made by flying wings and/or some bombers. (I can name other stories, but i believe this one will prove the point).

In other words try out differant units, as many will be useful. Defence-wise with arm, guardians and box o' deaths can easily prove to be any t1 and some t2 kbot's demise. the guardian's area of effect can damage and weaken most of the units if they are slow movers and the rockets from box o' deaths have a spread good for anti blob movements. The rare land based games i play are with pros half the time anyways and they will spam something that easily overcomes your standard tech 1 kbots. Gollies are one example, levelers another. but the most important thing is not to start raging on some person that screws up on something, just use your head, cool down, and think of a way to cover it up or something.

@thelawenforcer: i have one question to ask. Is the hellfish cheaper than a toadfoot?

@gota: you can still come back from a lost sea match. If you want some enlightenment ask pepeampere, he seemingly came back after i basically raped a couple of his destroyers. though it is nice to hear any problems in a sea battle. as i said in an earlier post, i ama to busy manuevering another's destroyer. your opinion of sea is differant than most players complain about, a race to build the biggest sea unit. also battlecruisers and battleships have no torpedo ports. hint hint.

@troy: i agree with the statement about the support units. But if you ask a pro they will say otherwise, or say, "oh its too pro for you" anyways most pros shape most things about NOTA and basically ruin most of the fun. I've had millions of ragers questioning and even complaining about the uselessness of a sound, and unbreakable defence from land. Very few players can build a sound defence, and not to brag, but i consider myself one of them. most gameplay revolves around, oh he's building kbots, or oh he's building vehicles. which makes things absolutely boring to play with. I can't even remember the last time i hadn't yawned playing nota. most of the tactical gameplay i picked up in september has completely faded away. It's been ages since i last used a raptor IV to attempt to break a leveler line. Support unit usefulness is torn down by the aspect of the inability to be spammed or the expensive aspect.

Tactics are based on resource budgets, as most maps give most players a maximum of 6 or 7 metal spots. with a minimum of 3. It isnt until moho mines are available that more advanced units may be seen. and the metal surplus may go to several kbot factories at 100% productivity mass producing t1 kbots. The fact that more NOTA players need to step up the need to think is apparently evident, as most players are content listening to others.

to say, there are no such thing as an underused unit sucking, it is just used in the wrong situation

[Gota]

My opinion is not different if you just took 10 seconds to think about what i wrote.
Once destroyer war is won the player that won goes battlecruiser(or whatever that uber megagiga ships is called) and gg.

[nightcold]

Hammers/Thuds are indeed intended to be anti-kbot. It's true that the description of light artillery is misleading.

hummmm...well they seem to be great against well.......EVERYTHING!!!

i personaly would like 2 see ground armies less centered around thuds/hammers.....when the game is centered around long ranged units blasting each other/everything from a-far.....some of the strategy/magic is lost....games become more about who has the most thuds on the field..sure snipers/mortars give some extra harassment(due to superior ranges), but it just make thud spam any more strategic/tactical/fun/sexy

i would like 2 see the peewee/ak play more of a role in big battles....like give them alot more armor and speed(and even more dps), so they can rush Hammers/Thuds even in larger concentrations...this would add ant-Hammers/Thuds rushes into the and equation....and maybe even anti-peewee/ak int as well (zeus???)

@nightcold
Get over the range fact. It's a normal aspect of the game, besides i quite prefer longer bombarding ranges, it weakens the attacking force enough so you can destroy the rest. Though I found out from pepeampere that fleas can literally be rarely hit be a thud/ hammer line if it is far in radar view. That one flea distracting thuds led to my team's defeat added to the fact one of my team mates disconnected

Anyways there are several anti thuds/hammer units out there. Like others have said many have either play like most players or even refuse to use other units considering them obsolete. for instance interceptors play a huge role in downing air units with high amounts of armor. which can to some extent minimize damage made by flying wings and/or some bombers. (I can name other stories, but i believe this one will prove the point).

In other words try out differant units, as many will be useful. Defence-wise with arm, guardians and box o' deaths can easily prove to be any t1 and some t2 kbot's demise. the guardian's area of effect can damage and weaken most of the units if they are slow movers and the rockets from box o' deaths have a spread good for anti blob movements. The rare land based games i play are with pros half the time anyways and they will spam something that easily overcomes your standard tech 1 kbots. Gollies are one example, levelers another. but the most important thing is not to start raging on some person that screws up on something, just use your head, cool down, and think of a way to cover it up or something.

Tactics are based on resource budgets, as most maps give most players a maximum of 6 or 7 metal spots. with a minimum of 3. It isnt until moho mines are available that more advanced units may be seen. and the metal surplus may go to several kbot factories at 100% productivity mass producing t1 kbots. The fact that more NOTA players need to step up the need to think is apparently evident, as most players are content listening to others.

to say, there are no such thing as an underused unit sucking, it is just used in the wrong situation

Interesting, you claim that there are anti-thud units out there...what are they??? since i have no clue what they might be...thuds can take out any k-bot, and almost any vehicle (see bulldog & reaper) ...anyway, just throw in a few storms and vehicle is no longer a problem(well alty is a different story)..hell I even like throwing in some Stumpy-s for meat shields, plus they are rather usefull when it comes to closing distances & rushes/raids...don't forget the AA :D

anyway my point has nothing to do with people thinking most of the units are obsolete....i think the problem is that thuds are way other powered....thuds should be good at hammering down at enemy positions, not being able to take down everything/anything..ground wise the game is far to centered around thuds(yeah yeah, repeating my-self)...anyway, peewees are so useless that they are already over priced even now

no no no, you got it all wrong ...tactics are all about decisions over troop management(during the battle) on the spot over what is happening right now (ex:choosing to move your thud line forward, positioning artillery...basically anything involving decision over what you already have on the field right now).....strategy is more along the lines economic management and decision over that your going to produce

[Thor]

About the armor classes, the type of background on the buildpic indicates a unit's armor. Grass means no armor, desert means medium/heavy. I don't know if anyone noticed that. Maybe putting the armor in the description is a good idea.

ok.

what about the air stuff? specifically the hellfish toad and vashps.

The hellfish is supposed to be a spammable area of effect plane. The toad has good precision and damage and is competent as a fighter as well, but is of course expensive and relatively vulnerable to AA. The vashp while precise is better general purpose and can attack without needing to fly right up to the target like the toad but it's completely defenseless to enemy fighters.

Snipers and Levelers are both level 1 units that are pretty good against thuds.

[nightcold]

hummmmm....well snipers are 2 slow when it comes to production to be able 2 stand up to larg numbers of thuds(which is comewhich is commonly seen)...also, snipers are not are usefull when not stationary

i'v never used levelers(or seen it be used 2 much)...not gana comment there(well not yet anyway)...gana try it out...

also quick note about the missions...they are way 2 hard, i think you need some testing whe it comes to difficulty(smoth things out, make it a bit more accesable)i felt that almost anyone of those could be used as those super hard end of campaign mission...only one i was able 2 win was the one in aftershock(had a blast playing it :D), which too alot of time and effort...rest where hard on a point that it took away a bit from it being enjoyable. Also, dose it work on the new version of spring now???

...you might have thought of this, but you can look for inspiration at some of the missons that commercial games have done...wc3 did a great job there(imo) every intresting scenarios/gameplay, (and story 2) hell when arthas was given a choice of killing of the infected before they turned the undead for the greater good or standing by his "morals", that there was gold. It got the audience emotionally involved as well as being rather involved(for a rts storyline anway, wtv is was..it is far better then the cheesy shallow mess known as SC2) ...there are a few obvious formulas whe it comes 2 misson makeing & rts storylines

[thelawenforcer]

The hellfish is supposed to be a spammable area of effect plane. The toad has good precision and damage and is competent as a fighter as well, but is of course expensive and relatively vulnerable to AA. The vashp while precise is better general purpose and can attack without needing to fly right up to the target like the toad but it's completely defenseless to enemy fighters.

it was more about the AA. id think that ground based AA could use a small buff.

but its generally ok. i must just have been raged by godde when i was posting this stuff ^^

btw, did u kno the toad was faster than regular fighters? it seems that way anyway...

levelers are indeed rather beastly, snipers are good too, but as nightcold said, they are really vulnerable on the move.

prob with levelers is that ppl often seem to go straight for levelers, without making a reasonably sized standing army. they therefore get raped by the person spamming thuds/rockos.

[thelawenforcer]

the taods being faster than fighters makes no sense, also, llts shudnt be able to target air imo.

[Kenku]

the taods being faster than fighters makes no sense, also, llts shudnt be able to target air imo.

I disagree there, Toadfoots are fighter-bombers, and should be able to deal with targets in both areas. Also in my opinion, if you restricted them to ground targets, they would loose their niche, cause in my opinion hellfish do a better job when it comes to army bombing, and strategic bombing is best left to the high flyers.

Toadfoot can be sneaky accurate agianst single or a couple targets, but forcing them to just ground in my opinion would devalue them.

[==Troy==]

Could an auto-quit widget be added to the default NOTA setup? Quite annoying to always find yourslef left behind when you go make yourself a cup of coffee.

As of the ground LLTs vs air.


1) They are _SLIGHTLY_ OP, since they perform well against air, not as good as miniguns, but well enough to kill 1-2 planes when there are >2 LLTs.

2) The ground mobile AA, especially missile, has very long reload times, while dealing relatively high damage, resulting in ALL missile units targetting first bomber, and letting the other 2-3 bombers behind pass above them before they can reload.



Both statements above end up in position where its hard to attack porc, but mobile armies are poorly defended with AA.

I suggest to either change the kbot AA bots into minigun bots (from missile AA bots) or to reduce the damage by 1/2 and decrease reload time by 1/2, allowing them to kill twice more planes, when there are 30 of them (even 30 kbots end up killing a single plane, and not the 5 behind it). While reducing the LLT damage with air.


Is there a way to put an option for AA behaviour? It would be best to have a way to choose if the falling bomber has higher priority than a healthy bomber above it (I noticed flak sometimes keep shooting the falling bomber, as to compared the one above, with full hp).

Is there a way to calculate how many missile have been shot against the bomber, and see if it is health + 10-20%, and force the rest of AA to re-target? Most of missile units have similar range afterall, so it will not end up with 1 BA mercury battery taking 10 seconds to reach the target.

[thelawenforcer]

the taods being faster than fighters makes no sense, also, llts shudnt be able to target air imo.

I disagree there, Toadfoots are fighter-bombers, and should be able to deal with targets in both areas. Also in my opinion, if you restricted them to ground targets, they would loose their niche, cause in my opinion hellfish do a better job when it comes to army bombing, and strategic bombing is best left to the high flyers.

Toadfoot can be sneaky accurate agianst single or a couple targets, but forcing them to just ground in my opinion would devalue them.

im not saying they shouldnt be fighter bombers, but they are better than fighters in many cases (they fly faster and have more health) and better than bombers in many cases too (how many bombers does it take to kill a coastal or guardian? alot. and how many toads? 3.)

[Kenku]

Being that its 1 toady=2 fighters in cost, of course it should be better. I understand your position that it may be a bit to much, but still. Also, I think your making the wrong bomber comparison. If you mean hellfish, well your using the bombers the wrong way. Hellfish are saturation bombers and are best suited to blowing the crud out of lines of units. If you mean Strategic Bombers, that sounds to me like a damage issue more than anything having to do with the Toady.

[Gone]

@night:
actually not most kbots. thuds are your generic t1 kbot killer. Try having a line of raptor IVs charge into your massive thud line. Or having a crabe go in too.
The reason for units considered obsolete is also the reason a thud line seems so overpowered. no one tries to combat it. with anything other than a thud line of their own.
Any experience i have sees tons of differant strategies, and for one thing, i've seen thud lines completely annihilated. mainly its the use of levelers and some other unit.
question... how well are your reading skills? i said based on, as most players only base their units off of their resource spending i said nothing about economy being tactics. and if i am wrong again please tell me as i will have to change my definition
@Gota: hmmm seems so
BUT battlecruisers have horrible accuracy from what ive seen and secondly have no torpedo ports and somewhat of a lackish AA. Torpedo that battlecruiser. shouldnt take long, especially if that one player is so noobish they forget a destroyer escort. Anyways half the time the sea matches I play tend to be destroyer vs cruiser matches so a destroyer war is something i have yet to see. And most battlecruisers emerge during the destroyer war. Not after.
Besides i've won plenty of matches with an ally losing the destroyer war. I believe its called a massive coastal defence and torpedo runs?
@Troy: I believe that an ARM t2 kbot factory has a minigun aa bot called the razorback. Though it is among the rare units of NOTA. Core has this advanced aa truck, but i never tested it out, as far as im concerned it has missiles on it. So please try out that aa truck and see what it has
@Law: Toadfoots are more expensive than your standard fighter... consider that extra hp and faster speed compensation for taking the time to building it. If its a problem, throw up mg defences or something. and i doubt bombing a coastal is strategic bombing, factory bombing fits that role more perfectly.

[the great zamboni]

Can you put plasma shields on as a mod option?

[Gone]

what do you want plasma shields for?

[the great zamboni]

From what I remember, watching plasma balls hitting the shield and fly off was really cool.

[nightcold]

adding plasma shields would ruin the games balance....plasma shields would eliminate all counters to porking ....nota games would start lasting for 3 hours instead of 30-min to 90 mins they do now(it si alot already)

anyway....plasma shields dont lokk soo good in game...

anyways i was thinking...one way to make nota turn into a faster mod would be to replace the towers with mobile comanders...also, make factories assistable...but even with alot of assist it would only make like a 8% bost in production(forceing u to make more factor)...basicly turn nota into sup-com....

[==Troy==]

NOTA slowness is a feature, not a bug.

[nightcold]

i dont mind the slowness(i actually love it)

but one of the reasons not as many people play nota (not as much) is because a nota game takes a long time(if this was a commercial game there would be huge problems, god bless open source)...maybe the creators(thor & smart dude) can like make a mini mod(like how the ba people made a BA chickens mod that requires the newest ba with it) that has a modified balance along with mobile comanders...

the advantage to haveing a "mini-mod" over a option is that people can see what ur up 2 on the lobby menu...and chances are that it will get played more 2(over an option)

[thesleepless]

i tested out a mutator with plasma shields, it was alright and pretty fun, since it provides a defense against berthas but will not hold up to vulcan fire and can easily be defeated by air, nukes, beam weapons or rushing behind the shield wall, but tweaking them to get the cost and settings right is difficult.