What is not addressed is your desire for unscouted areas are all black. This is a bad idea. It's only good if the map is randomly generated (a possible future feature) so that no player knows what the map looks like before playing. But right now, players DO know what the map looks like before playing so it's annoying to make it all black.
Maybe it only piss off those who are not ready to more strategic gameplay. Where you can not just in the start give fast build orders for VTOL builders etc. You can not just blind shoot to specific points without actually scouting. But no one would be forced to have that. It would be just option to enable.
It makes the game play harder. Thats why FOW and LOS is used on multiple multiplayer RTS games, to bring a strategic element, not to piss off players. And it would be a _optional_ feature for games and mods, just like configuring the game speed or units speed, wind amount and other features effecting game play.
Even that player would know 100% the whole map. It still would force player to use more stratetic ways in the start. And it would allow a new player better changes in the start aagainst fast skilled player who knows the units etc.
It is like moving in your home in the dark. You believe you know your house totally but first few times you notice that you are pretty lost to find anything. You can find out stairways, doorways but to find specific things right away is much harder. It would take even more practice to actually walk around from point A to point B without touching any walls or other objects in the way.
Thats why we do have LOS and units that can shoot by the radar information and accuracy is depending about the other features. It is a strategic element same way as FOW.
zwz answered this but I will clarify in case you didn't understand. The graphic is not smooth when a unit is moving because the engine's LoS calculation is slow.
Maybe I was not so clear. I Know that graph is not smooth. Thats why the topic was created. The current LOS is ugly and it does not work. If anyone else has ever played any other RTS game where the LOS is done, it is done mostly on these days in real time, without lags, without hyper fancy coloring (I have not pressed the ; as you suggest, yet). Currently the spring LOS is more like fancy technical feature and not the feature to make gameplay more tactical.
The calculations can be easily accurate, but the graphics does not need to be tied to LOS calculation process but being a separated and visually impressive strategic element. Thats why LOS and FOW would be smooth edged. Not everything need to be a 100% accuracy by calculations but they can be balanced for the game play, without making a jerky, ugly and almost useless LOS feature like current version.
It is possible to make the graphic smooth but it would update faster than the engine's LoS calculations, so we prefer not-smooth-graphic because it's correct.
No it would not update faster. It would always be following the LOS calculation, unless the LOS calculations are not accurate and move exactly the same way as the unit. Here is said that the LOS calculations are done exactly and smoothly as the unit moves. But the graphics are not updated real time.
Even now we have real time range ring. And LOS calculations are done as well, right? But the graphical showing of that is not updating nearly as well. Think about the LOS effect being draw as smoothly and well as the range ring. Check out the starting post mockup. You can see the LOS line is blurry. Now image the LOS line to black edge of that blurry circle. And image that LOS would be smootly curved like it would be water what reflects the surface where it is flowing. The units already has acceleration and braking speeds. Units does not start moving and stop moving instantly. Their movement is smooth. And when the LOS is drawn as graphical element, like range circle. without fancy coloring or adding a more complex calculations. It is a graphical thing what is drawn by GPU, used the calculations of the current LOS (what is there because units appears and disappears from their view). But with this graphical element, that would be just nicely grayed and fainted away. The units would not disappear and appears suddendly or change to/from radar dots/icons.
Now the LOS engine seems to be tryed to be 100% accurate with .00001 accuracy and perfect by every pixel by that way. Thats why there are smooth edges on RTS games for FOW/LOS so the calculations can be done more simpler way, real time and still in such accuracy that does not bring any prolems to game play. RTS games what use hex-mode maps. It is easy because you can just drawn the unseen areas as black. Games what has similar grid, like Age of Empires II, you can just paint the grid areas same way. 3D brings lots of problems if being 100% accurate, but everything can be work out when thinking what actually is needed to be a totally accurate (example the hit area effects for units need to be) and what does not need to be (graphical representation of LOS because using the fuzzy edge. The user can see that there is unit, the computer does not need to know because it can calculate it itself already.)
Fri13 you seem to be saying that games which do not use the black area view state have no intel warfare element. Correct me if I am wrong.
There is intel, but it is easier in the begin. When you can see where exactly to go, where you can sooner place build orders, the easier the game is. When there is need to advance first, scout and then react, there comes need for much more strategic element by the player.
Like now we can see right away when enemy is building big factories etc, without scouting or having a radar. The terrain gets morphed and anyone can see that right away.
There are different levels of game play, every level adds new strategic element.
1. No FOW/LOS
2. No FOW, only LOS
3. FOW and LOS
Now Spring has only level 2 on it. And it is not good looking. It is not functional so (and that is the visual).
Even the LOS could be mixed with FOW. By making it so that you do not see anything what is outside of FOW (not even terrain) but only the targets what radar gives. They can flow in the air or be placed some strange way. (Even now many can recognize the fighter from bomber or scout vehicle from assault vehicle by the speed and the movement, even that radar shows the dot.)
It would make the whole game play more strategic than just plain LOS where you can see the map like it would be just empty.
If you know where the mex spot is you can send a unit to it and give the mex order when they see the spot. All you have added is micro.
What you call "micro" is called a strategy. You need to send scout first, when you spot the location. Then you can add build order there.
When you do not know or you can not place order before you have found something, it makes it harder to expand as you have trained to do hundreds of times. There comes more possible unknown situations what ruins your plan because you did not count them. Just by adding a FOW.
Micromanagement would be that you need to start building every thing yourself. You could not do any kind build orders for factories or any terrain what is in your control. Micromanagement would be that you can not just build predefined unit, but you would need to select unit movement types, weaponry (tracks, wheels, lasers, cannons etc) and other features.
Why even skilled players are afraid the FOW? Because they have no clue what actually they should do first. They can not think so multiple different levels to actually first scout, then build. And in the start, every player can see where they have been. What areas they have not scouted and where is possible enemy.
That is the situation in the real war as well. Maps does not tell anything. You can find perfect place for defense by looking a map. But when going to place itself, it can be unsuitable for defense. Even that you would have satellite images. Thats why scouting is very important feature and intelligence is usually that what makes biggest mistakes using too old information.
And the defender always has the greater change to win than attacker, because they have the positions already on known place. In forest you have 3:1 for defenders. In urban fights it is even 6:1 to 12:1. Because attacker does not know the terrain in first place. In time you find out the terrain how to use. But every defense positions gives different results and always giving better change for defenders.
Maybe thats why so many are not so willing to use the "Random positions" feature either, because they can not use learn tactics right away. They need to scout on what direction the enemy is, check out the area where they actually are and make plans based that. It makes much more strategic game play right away.
I never understood the concept of FOW. You think army commanders went on a new battleground without a map? Well maybe some spaniards exploring South-America, but other than that, maps and pre-battle scouting were used to give a detailed description of the battlefield since culture developed. You think huge robots waging interstellar wars would be more primitive than ancient Mesopotamia?
That was the point of the TA. The commander is send to location. It can be even random place somewhere on the planet. It was harder to play. Even times coming after first time. If we are trying to think what there would be in the future. Why they still use radar towers or vehicles? Even today we can use satellites to show units. We can have satellite telemetry to give real time visual about map. So no need to LOS less than FOW. They have big cannons what can shoot less than 20km. Even 70 years ago were huge cannons what could shoot over 80km and sink battleships with one hit. TA has missiles what fly only few kilometers or on the whole map, while today we have missiles what flies hundreds and thousands of kilometers easily. In games we have nukes what are like todays 155mm artillery explosions... Not so good point to think about such thing.
There are game play elements just for game play. It is better when we can make games harder or easier depending the players. Having a good FOV/LOS is nothing what would force everyone to be using when playing. It would be up to games and game hosts to enable such features if there would be such possible. FOV/LOS feature is about engine, not about games. If the spring does not allow FOV/LOS to being there well done, then it is harder for game makers or modders to implement one.
- Titan-V2.jpeg
- Only parts mockup, basic is using LOS calculations.
- (166.08 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
And this is how it could look. Smooth edges, real time update (same way as the range ring is updated. The dark/gray area just get smoothly expanded/hided. When the FOW/LOS edge is blurry, it gives player still the advantage to actually see the partially units (other than just appearing/disappearing) and computer still calculates the LOS correctly for shooting etc.
