Health Care

[SinbadEV]

I'm really confused what the resistance Americans have to free health-care is...

Could someone anti-healthcare come forward so I can understand your position?

[Noruas]

people are pissed because of the costs of the procedure has not been lowered and now the government would be covering it. I don't understand why you use "free" free is a fantasy term given by delusional people.

The average for full procedure for giving birth to a baby is 15,000 to 30,000 dollars in a hospital. Because the government is competing instead of changing the price... and more then 4,000,000 babies are born in the U.S. your looking at an average of 90,000,000,000 or 90 billion dollars in government coverage and taxing. if 1/12th of the population visited only once for just visits, not even seeing a doctor, it will cost 255 billion dollars. Just covering visits and babies will be half of the medicaid program that we already pay... but don't worry with inflation this won't sound like a lot. I think if people actually used the "free" health care system it could cost trillions of dollars yearly. How would we circulate this money?!?!

The real reason why most Americans are afraid is because Glenn Beck says its socialized, Ronald Reagen says its socialized. woot woot

[Gota]

What I don't understand is how come it works in most other western countries but would not work in the US.
How is this health care program different?

[Noruas]

The one being put in the place or the old school one Gota?

[Gota]

Universal health care in one form or another is used in most western countries..

[SinbadEV]

So there are practical problems with the plan that need resolving (aka, healthcare is still being provided by private corporations, it's just that the taxpayers are footing the bill), but the majority concern is the illogical fear of socialism?

Okay, that gives me something to work with... I can play with the "I agree the program has problems but..." angle... I'm moving to a small US town for a few months and most of my relatives in the area are Republican... so the topic will likely come up... you know, with me being from Canada and all.

I think that the best pro-socialist angle I've got is the "What ARE you paying taxes for?"

[Relative]

What I don't understand is how come it works in most other western countries but would not work in the US.
How is this health care program different?

Majority of the World:

The government collects taxes from income, businesses, trade, etc... - then government provides health service that may or may not be supplemented by private sector.

US:
Person becomes ill or needs a consult - person is then billed for expenses by doctor or hospital - if person has health insurance (personal or through their job) and if the health insurance covers the illness or consult (e.g. might not cover pre-existing conditions, or not cover mental illness) and cost of care isn't below (like most insurance small claims are covered by person) or exceeds limits (pays up to limit unless the plan is unlimited, then costs covered by person) then costs are covered. If person doesn't have insurance or the insurance policy doesn't cover their needs then costs may be covered by Medicare (senior citizens) or Medicaid (the very poor). However, there are limits to coverage by both Medicare and Medicaid. Everyone else must personally cover the costs - in many cases can be crippling if they have a serious condition, which explains the high medical bankruptcy rate in the US.

[Erom]

I think a lot of the objection (at least the not-ridiculous objection - a lot of people are just kneejerking it) is this: We're overhauling health insurance but we're not fixing a lot of the other aspect of health care (pharma and hospital industries, etc.) that are pretty whack in this country. Just fixing one part of the problem without looking at all aspects of it is bound to cause some really bad problems.

It's like trying to balance a badly balanced mod, but the only thing you are allowed to change is build times.

Personally, I'm very much in favor of a European style system. Just presenting what I think the most rational counter argument is.

[SinbadEV]

US:
Person becomes ill or needs a consult - person is then billed for expenses by doctor or hospital - if person has health insurance (personal or through their job) and if the health insurance covers the illness or consult (e.g. might not cover pre-existing conditions, or not cover metal illness) and cost of care isn't below (like most insurance small claims are covered by person) or exceeds limits (pays up to limit unless the plan is unlimited, then costs covered by person). If person doesn't have insurance or the insurance policy doesn't cover their needs then costs may be covered by Medicare (senior citizens) or Medicaid (the very poor). Everyone else personally cover the costs - which in many cases can be crippling if they have a serious condition.

Sorry, that's the old system I hope right? This new system fixes that?



Oh, I suppose another good angle is the "Think of the children" gambit... if a child get's sick should he/she be denied care because his/her parents are poor? The gamble is that to a real Republican is so anti-socialist that their answer to this question is "Yes, their parents should have worked harder to make more money if they wanted to have children."

[Noruas]

I think that the best pro-socialist angle I've got is the "What ARE you paying taxes for?"

Are you trolling me?

We pay taxes so we can discover how mosquito reproduce when on medical marijuana. We paid 50 million to see how pigs feel when looking inside the slaughter house of dead pigs. Earmarks are hilarious, go read them, you could make a comic book about it...

[tombom]

I'm really confused what the resistance Americans have to free health-care is...

Could someone anti-healthcare come forward so I can understand your position?

It is not "free" not even in the "government covers it" sense, there is no public option, you've been misled

[Gota]

Heh.I'm anti healthcare-nobody should have healthcare,not even if he/she pays for it!

[SinbadEV]

I'm really confused what the resistance Americans have to free health-care is...

Could someone anti-healthcare come forward so I can understand your position?

It is not "free" not even in the "government covers it" sense, there is no public option, you've been misled

So it basically amounts to a Government owned "Affordable Insurance" provider? Great job Obama, way to make people even MORE afraid of Universal Socialized Free Health-Care...

[zwzsg]

metal illness

\m/ Metal is not an illness! \m/

[Gota]

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.
You didn't get mad when the Pentagon misplaced $2.3 trillion.
You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.
You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.
You didn't get mad when you saw the Abu Grahib photos.
You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.
You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.
You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.
You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
You didn't get mad when the debt went up $5 trillion under Bush.
You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all ok with you but helping other Americans... well fuck that. ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH!


lolololololololol

[Relative]

US:
Person becomes ill or needs a consult - person is then billed for expenses by doctor or hospital - if person has health insurance (personal or through their job) and if the health insurance covers the illness or consult (e.g. might not cover pre-existing conditions, or not cover metal illness) and cost of care isn't below (like most insurance small claims are covered by person) or exceeds limits (pays up to limit unless the plan is unlimited, then costs covered by person). If person doesn't have insurance or the insurance policy doesn't cover their needs then costs may be covered by Medicare (senior citizens) or Medicaid (the very poor). Everyone else personally cover the costs - which in many cases can be crippling if they have a serious condition.

Sorry, that's the old system I hope right? This new system fixes that?

Well its still the same system roughly, but now its a legal requirement to get insurance; there are subsidies for those who can't afford it and are not covered by medicaid; businesses now get tax credits for each employee they give insurance to; insurance companies cannot deny insurance to those with pre-existing conditions or exit from agreements with high-risk customers; children can continue to be covered by their parent's plan until the age of 26 so that they don't have additional costs as they go through education and are still dependent on parents; unrelated small businesses and individuals will eventually be able to buy group policies together to bring down the individual costs of insurance; and a shit load of other stuff.

[SinbadEV]

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.
You didn't get mad when the Pentagon misplaced $2.3 trillion.
You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.
You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.
You didn't get mad when you saw the Abu Grahib photos.
You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.
You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.
You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.
You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
You didn't get mad when the debt went up $5 trillion under Bush.
You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all ok with you but helping other Americans... well fuck that. ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH!


lolololololololol

Sadly the "You're all a bunch of Sheeple" argument doesn't work (at least not on the Sheeple themselves) because they didn't get mad because they don't believe most of those things and to say many of them in public would get you beaten up for "not supporting the troops"...

[Forboding Angel]

...illogical fear of socialism?

It's not illogical. No matter how you cut it, socialism is a direct contradiction of our constitution, bill of rights, and our current way of life.

[Sausage]

Sheeple... cool word

[Forboding Angel]

Oh, I suppose another good angle is the "Think of the children" gambit... if a child get's sick should he/she be denied care because his/her parents are poor? The gamble is that to a real Republican is so anti-socialist that their answer to this question is "Yes, their parents should have worked harder to make more money if they wanted to have children."

This is BS. Medicaid and are you forgetting "SCHIP"?