Thinking Out Loud

[nightcold]

well it has not been taken as far as it could be.......same with formations

well we don't have any squad based mods at spring....

[zwzsg]

well we don't have any squad based mods at spring....

Cuberor's Finest

[Neddie]

Games. And I think Merc Squad was squad based.

[zwzsg]

And I think Merc Squad was squad based.

Did you play it?

[Neddie]

And I think Merc Squad was squad based.

Did you play it?

On my EEE, some time ago. As I said, I think so, but I can't be certain. It honestly didn't hold my attention and it was more than a little buggy.

[SpikedHelmet]

The other thing I'm pondering is far simpler. In the same vein as ships, I was wondering if anyone's ever sought to create a mod that was mostly/entirely a naval combat sim. That is, it's made to be played on maps that almost entirely feature water, and all of it's units are large naval ships (and probably some carrier planes as well!).

I have. I haven't gone through with it due to lack of support, but I think a naval combat game could be well done by the Spring engine as it doesn't have a lot of the things that makes Spring engine a little daft (terrain/feature/unit interaction).

As for scale, a naval combat sim needs nothing but ships and planes, and as such no "infantry" models/units, so the scale can be whatever you'd like it to be, with Aircraft Carriers being similar size to OTA ones. Afterall, if you remember the Core Contingency map/feature files, based on the size of buildings, roads and especially cars, a PeeWee is actually like a 25 foot tall 'mech'.

Only problem is, what to base it on? Historical? WW1 naval combat was pretty dull (no planes), WW2 has been done to death (including by me), Cold War is unexplored but not very popular with RTS gamers, and there's very very little reference for sci-fi naval combat. Then ofc there's pre-dreadnought "1800s" style men-of-war wooden ships with multiple gun decks firing broadsides at each other (a la the naval component of Empire/Napolean Total War).

Of those all, Cold War era, Scifi and 1800's style interests me most.

[HeavyLancer]

If you sorted out CIWS-style systems and got a working setup for carriers with multiple plane types, then a cold war naval game would be awesome. The scales might be a little bit difficult though.

Cold War isn't popular with gamers because not many games have been done around it. The only ones I can think of are Codename: Panzers Cold War and World In Conflict. WiC was actually quite fun, despite the rather simplistic gameplay. I think the setting is more unexplored territory than bad game territory.
Also, Harpoon. Real-time harpoon with dynamic zoom (like on the spring engine) would be epic.

[Neddie]

S44 may have squads as a modoption in the distant future.

[JohannesH]

the other idea would be for someone to (this would be a lot more work probably) take a mod (probably BA or CA) and make the largest land unit be the smallest possible unit size... I think a 1x1 footprint becomes a targetting problem so this would likely be a 2x2.... THEN you make any units that are smaller then that 2x2 acctually be a squad of units with a hit radius of 2x2... then you make ships 10x10 or whatever huge number makes them look right.

I threw that idea around a while back. Emulating how the Total War franchise does things. Although I think it'd be neat, I think the hang up is having a unit of, for example, 8 mechs all die at the same time would be kind of frustrating. Of course, I imagine some of you fine minds could find a way to work around that.

well Praetorians (a somewhat older rtt/rts game) did things a bit diffrently there.....u control squads but troops in it have thier own health...and the heath bar 4 group the is the avg of all the troops in the group u(i belive Praetorians did it like that....not sure)

squads/formations is something that i wana see in spring.... it makes it easier when u are controlling large amounts of troops, and your are also not as overwhelmed with the managing altogether

squads/formations give games a more tactical element and make games less about RPS & "i have a better economy than you, therefore i win"......

How would having some sort of squad system make the game more micro emphasised? To me it seems that with squads there would be much less chances to control your units better than your opponent - so it would be more about strategic play and less tactics that would give you the edge over others.

[SanadaUjiosan]

The other thing I'm pondering is far simpler. In the same vein as ships, I was wondering if anyone's ever sought to create a mod that was mostly/entirely a naval combat sim. That is, it's made to be played on maps that almost entirely feature water, and all of it's units are large naval ships (and probably some carrier planes as well!).

I have. I haven't gone through with it due to lack of support, but I think a naval combat game could be well done by the Spring engine as it doesn't have a lot of the things that makes Spring engine a little daft (terrain/feature/unit interaction).

As for scale, a naval combat sim needs nothing but ships and planes, and as such no "infantry" models/units, so the scale can be whatever you'd like it to be, with Aircraft Carriers being similar size to OTA ones. Afterall, if you remember the Core Contingency map/feature files, based on the size of buildings, roads and especially cars, a PeeWee is actually like a 25 foot tall 'mech'.

Only problem is, what to base it on? Historical? WW1 naval combat was pretty dull (no planes), WW2 has been done to death (including by me), Cold War is unexplored but not very popular with RTS gamers, and there's very very little reference for sci-fi naval combat. Then ofc there's pre-dreadnought "1800s" style men-of-war wooden ships with multiple gun decks firing broadsides at each other (a la the naval component of Empire/Napolean Total War).

Of those all, Cold War era, Scifi and 1800's style interests me most.

I agree, while a WW2 setting would probably be pretty enjoyable, poor WW2 is undeniably overdone. I have not played many naval battles in Empire Total War (I pretty much only play that game with a friend, I can not pull through those monster-sized campaigns), but I was pretty awful at them. As far as gameplay goes, my most enjoyable naval experience has been Age of Empires 3, hands down. I love the ships in that game, and I think it's the most fun/well implemented system.

Personally, I think a 1700-1800's theme would be the most interesting. But, as I believe I said in my first post (not sure if I did, not going to check. It's late) I'm just pondering these ideas with no real intention of trying to see them through. I'm devoted to another project right now.

[Neddie]

Luckily we already have an excellent World War II game around here.

There was a naval combat game under development by VonGratz, though I believe he has taken a sabbatical from work on it. Napoleonic sea warfare is somewhat interesting, though it it worth noting that there are a limited number of roles and effective differentiation. Sure, fire ships and bomb vessels were used to attack harbors and coastal structures respectively, but when it comes to sea battle you have a few classes that differ in effective directional armament, maximum range, personnel aboard, maneuverability, maximum speed, relative draught-

Alright, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea.

[SanadaUjiosan]

I think that is one of the reasons I was horrible at the Empire Total War naval battles. I'd like to think I'm kind of familiar with land armies and what they should do. Stuff like formations, flanking. You know, tactics.

But boats. Oh god I know next to nothing about them. I want them to shoot, and win, that's it. As I constantly say to my friends, I'm no admiral.

I just think it'd be neat to see what Spring could do with a navy-heavy/all-navy game.

[JohannesH]

I just think it'd be neat to see what Spring could do with a navy-heavy/all-navy game.

Theres many games with ships. Play a sea map and its navyheavy/allnavy right there.

[FLOZi]

Everyone seems to forget the War At Sea mod by Imp for TA:

[VonGratz]

Impossible to forget it!!!!!:mrgreen:
vonGratz

[Pxtl]

One problem is that realistically, cold-war era surface-naval combat was a work of fiction. Nobody wanted to admit it, but all those cruisers and whatnot were nothing but torpedo and divebomber-bait. Every war-game they ran came up with that result. SAM and sonar technology couldn't keep up with the development of submarines and aircraft. The real main role for surface ships was in a support role... transports, missile-launch platforms when fighting non-naval enemies, aircraft carriers, etc. Not ships with big guns and torpedo launchers.

Personally, if I wanted to do a big naval theme, I'd do some fictitious setting. Steampunk (WW2 tech with 19th-century looks), or a Turtledove-esque alternate history. Hell, forget the boats, do zeppelins instead - same gameplay but more interesting terrain.

[JohannesH]

Personally, if I wanted to do a big naval theme, I'd do some fictitious setting. Steampunk (WW2 tech with 19th-century looks), or a Turtledove-esque alternate history. Hell, forget the boats, do zeppelins instead - same gameplay but more interesting terrain.

Most gameplay ideas can be done in almost any setting - unless you want some sort of realism of course. But how would ships and zeppelins be so similar in gameplay possibilities, compared to a ground warfare (or any theme you can think of) setting?

[Pxtl]

Big, slow-moving battle-platforms armed with broadsides, that you fight against with your fighters and use to travel in-between islands and transport ground-troops. See? Spaceship, airship, ship. The only difference is where they travel. If you're making a naval-combat game, using airships would be a good way to keep the terrain interesting. After all, oceans are kind of dull.

hell, Xenogears had landships that were used in big, flat, open deserts.

[JohannesH]

Big, slow-moving battle-platforms armed with broadsides, that you fight against with your fighters and use to travel in-between islands and transport ground-troops. See? Spaceship, airship, ship. The only difference is where they travel. If you're making a naval-combat game, using airships would be a good way to keep the terrain interesting. After all, oceans are kind of dull.

hell, Xenogears had landships that were used in big, flat, open deserts.

Thats what I was saying - you dont have to limit that to spaceship/airship/ship, you can make quite similar thing that moves on land as well.

Or naval game could be just as well fast somali speedboats cruising around, as fight between big vessels.

[SanadaUjiosan]

I just think it'd be neat to see what Spring could do with a navy-heavy/all-navy game.

Theres many games with ships. Play a sea map and its navyheavy/allnavy right there.

I'm not impressed with BA's navy, and I don't enjoy playing games where I'll need to use it. I'm not sure if I've ever won/been on the winning team of a game where a navy was needed for victory.

I think what interests me most is the idea of taking out the need for land. Like floating buildings. Make it so the only two options are navy and aircraft. No aircraft for the older galleon-type setting, of course.