ARM tier one vehicles and you!

[mar3moset]

Currently the ARM Stumpy and Flash have been "Game winners" in many of my recent matches.

The cost of a single ARM flash is 109 metal and 914 energy.
The CORE instigator is 118 metal with 1042 energy

all fair and well due to the fact the instigator's laser does additional damage the closer it is to it's target, their indiviudual buildrates are nearly identical and need no discussing.

But, lets take a look at the raider and Stumpy.

The Raider costs 211 metal and 2219 Energy to build with a hp of 1685 and a range of 350 and a considerably longer unassisted build rate then the stumpy's unassisted build rate.

The ARM stumpy however only costs 201 metal & 1749 Energy, with a considerably faster construction rate, cheaper cost, and greater speed the ARM stumpy proves to be a far superiour vehicle, enough to be a contender for fighting against early tier 2 vehicles.

The janus and the Leveler, can serve similar purposes but outclass each other for specific tasks, For example the ARM Janus is far superiour for sniping off specific targets but is also not a bad choice for killing hordes of k-bots. The CORE Leveler is a true dedicated k-bot killing machine, but lacks the ability to snipe off buildings.

CORE Leveler : 210 Metal & 2387 Energy to construct with a unassisted buildrate of 3009.

ARM Janus : 226 Metal & 2361 energy to construct with a unassisted buildrate of 3545.

In the regard of k-bot slaughter the Core seem to have the advantage at tier one, but why would an ARM commander opt to use ARM K-bots to begin with unless the combat area's terrain is completely unsuitable to ARM vehicle units. The Leveler comes up short against the Stumpy, while the Leveler has more firepower its lack of range and speed bring it down against the Stumpy.

In conclusion the ARM Stumpy is more or less the overall superiour tier one vehicle for either ARM or CORE and imbalances the Balanced Annihilation gameplay.

Also I couldnt get the time to post cross lab battles I.E. CORE K-bots versus ARM Vehicles and Vice Versa, so please also post about those kinds of match up balances.

[Regret]

Currently the ARM Stumpy and Flash have been "Game winners" in many of my recent matches.

In conclusion the ARM Stumpy is more or less the overall superiour tier one vehicle for either ARM or CORE and imbalances the Balanced Annihilation gameplay.

Your valuable experience and keen deduction skills are deeply appreciated.

Feel free to make a renamed fork of BA with said changes included and see how well it plays and how people like it.

[Gota]

I liked it more when flash was the op unit.

[JohannesH]

Leveler fares much better against tanks than bots, due to tanks having lower range overall.

And gator owns.

Interesting how you dont mention jeffy/weasel or cons at all.

[Niobium]

Arm != Core

[albator]

Only problem is energy drain of raider, otherwise blade compensate raiding ability and undiscutable opness of stumpy (better M, E & BT cost for more speed, maneovrability and 1v1 win metal equivalent-speaking against raider). But dont waste your time to make a mutator, if you dont have a lot of poeple who want to play with you, your mod can be the finnest balanced, noone will plays it. It is like to try saying fagots buying boys-band that it is not the real music. Of course there is always the producer who will come at you to say: "if everybody is buying my crap, that is good crap". Well, wait and see.

[Wombat]

hi cpt obvious, check how many topics with same conclusion ppl already made

[Sausage]

core t2 > arm t2

and coret1 has alot more things to consider like exploiters and how gators prawn scouts and levelers > janus

warriors>all tho

[Mav]

In conclusion the ARM Stumpy is more or less the overall superiour tier one vehicle for either ARM or CORE and imbalances the Balanced Annihilation gameplay.

Yep.

Anything new to add that people don't already know?

Balance Annihilation IS NOT about Arm and Core having identical units. Some Core units are more efficient than their counterparts and vice versa. When an enemy builds an effective unit, learn to build the proper counter unit.

P.S. This is true for CA too. They made some widget thing that keeps track of how much damage units cause vs. how much metal they cost to build. I could be wrong, but the stumpy is still #1 unit?

[Pxtl]

@Mav

It's a little harder to swallow when there are 2 nearly-identical units but one is straight-up better than the other. CA doesn't have that because the Arm and Core stumpy/flash/gator/ravager are very jumbled up in their roles, since the gator is a comparatively huge raider, and the ravager is a cumbersome (but powerful) assault vehicle. Stumpy seems powerful in CA because it's the only unit that neatly fits into the same old skirmisher role of the BA stumpy.

[bobthedinosaur]

you know a 1 race game would be pretty balanced....

[JohannesH]

@Mav

It's a little harder to swallow when there are 2 nearly-identical units but one is straight-up better than the other.

But it should still be pretty easy to swallow when you think of it.


Maps determine balance anyway

[TheFatController]

This forum really needs a special rule against people trying to divert the conversation into one about CA in every single thread

Stumpy are better than Raider however the actual difference is small enough that it'll only really be reflected in small games where both sides have equal economy and equal skill and are making nothing but Stumpy and Raider where the Stumpy player will eventually win over time.

I don't personally think it's as big a problem as some people make it out to be, I've never seen a game where the outcome was determined only by the difference in cost between these tanks.

(Generic disclaimer: This opinion does not mean that they'll never be fixed...)

[Mav]

@Mav

It's a little harder to swallow when there are 2 nearly-identical units but one is straight-up better than the other.

Who cares?

Balance isn't determined by single units. I think the Leveler is a better alternative to the Janus. The Stumpy is better than Raider.

I (mostly) play Arm. Why? I like T1 tank spamming, so it makes sense to use Stumpies. When I feel like teching, I (usually) switch to Core. I heartily enjoy BA's different units, even when they appear nearly the same.

You can't pick two modern fighter jets with identical characteristics. Nor can you do that with tanks. Why should the game be any different?

Want to bring up similar units that REALLY need to be evaluated? What about Fido vs. Morty? Morty spams are fairly common, but I almost NEVER see Fidos used. At least with the Stumpy/Leveler argument the two are used in (almost) equal numbers. No one touches Fidos.

[albator]

Stumpy are better than Raider however the actual difference is small enough [...]

Let me remind you the raider cost +27% energy wrt rstumpy and requires more build time (+14%), which means when a front begins to open and metal is flooding from both side, the stumpy spam will be (at same E production) 10 stumpy vs 13 raiders.

And this basic number does not take into account the fact that since the buildtime is higher for raider, you have to make more build power to be able to spamm at the same rate than the stumpy, and still with a +27% energy drain wrt stumpy. And guess what build power (nano) cost a lot of energy to be created, that means you have to build energy before starting to make nano (which the only purpose is to catch up the equivalent build power of the stumpy creation equivalent). This time to create energy (can be adanced solar/ windmill) and nano roughly increase the energydrain of more 20% (
If arm is at 4 nano, u need one more nano (ok two third of it) : 1 nano + 1 advanced solar (to make before the nano) : 7k E: If you make an average over 10 raider, this is 7k/10 = 700E (3.3k/0.7 = 21%) , ofc the longer it lasts the better it gets, but during the first minute, ou lose much more than 21%)

At the end, the energy drain is ~50% higher when u are unlimited in metal. (And since stumpy is faster, it can reach the wrecks and secure the metal faster btw)

Conclusion: I really dont care that stumpy, even for a cheaper metal cost and buildtime cost is faster, more manoeuvrable and win in 1vs1 against raider (metal equivalent speaking), but this +27% energy is insane and make of the raider, the only unit which is the answer to this question:

If you have the choice to build any unit of BA at one time (arm, core, t1;t2,t3, air/kbot/veh/...) which ones will you never build because they is one which better in 100% (not 99%) situation and cost less E/M/BT. Now you know the msot obvious one


Now the fact you say :

Stumpy are better than Raider however the actual difference is small enough that it'll only really be reflected in small games

show how much you care of "small game" and only care about crowded dsd. Of course, this is your choice since this is your mod, but poeple playing small game (know how to play ?) play dsd as small game.


I made my argumentation with numbers, I hope you will answer with number and not with "poeple like..., poeple do..." If you do then I will just keep play BA cause ofc it is fun and i like it (and u made a really good job with all the other stuff than balance), but I wont argue with BA balance anymore cause it looks like it kinda useless to argue here.





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http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... &MOD=ba712

http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... &MOD=ba712

[mar3moset]

Stumpy are better than Raider however the actual difference is small enough [...]

Let me remind you the raider cost +27% energy stumpy and requires more build time (+14%), which means when a front begins to open and metal is flooding from both side, the stumpy spam will be (at same E production) 10 stumpy vs 13 raiders.

And this basic number does not take into account the fact that since the buildtime is higher for raider, you have to make more build power to be able to spamm at the same rate than the stumpy, and still with a +27% energy drain wrt stumpy. And guess what build power (nano) cost a lot of energy to be created, that means you have to build energy before starting to make nano (which the only purpose is to catch up the equivalent build power of the stumpy creation equivalent). This time to create energy (can be adanced solar/ windmill) and nano roughly increase the energydrain of more 20% (
If arm is at 4 nano, u need one more nano (ok two third of it) : 1 nano + 1 advanced solar (to make before the nano) : 7k E: If you make an average over 10 raider, this is 7k/10 = 700E (3.3k/0.7 = 21%) , ofc the longer it lasts the better it gets, but during the first minute, ou lose much more than 21%)

At the end, the energy drain is ~50% higher when u are unlimited in metal. (And since stumpy is faster, it can reach the wrecks and secure the metal faster btw)

Conclusion: I really dont care that stumpy, even for a cheaper metal cost and buildtime cost is faster, more manoeuvrable and win in 1vs1 against raider (metal equivalent speaking), but this +27% energy is insane and make of the raider, the only unit which is the answer to this question:

If you have the choice to build any unit of BA at one time (arm, core, t1;t2,t3, air/kbot/veh/...) which ones will you never build because they is one which better in 100% (not 99%) situation and cost less E/M/BT. Now you know the msot obvious one


Now the fact you say :

Stumpy are better than Raider however the actual difference is small enough that it'll only really be reflected in small games

show how much you care of "small game" and only care about crowded dsd. Of course, this is your choice since this is your mod, but poeple playing small game (know how to play ?) play dsd as small game.


I made my argumentation with numbers, I hope you will answer with number and "poeple like..., poeple do..." If you do then I will just keep play BA cause ofc it is fun and i like it (and u made a really good job with all the other stuff than balance), but I wont argue with BA balance anymore cause it looks like it kinda useless to argue here.





DATA:

http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... &MOD=ba712

http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... &MOD=ba712

You got off topic and said the stumpy costs more E which is incorrect please try again, thank you.

[JohannesH]

Stumpy are better than Raider however the actual difference is small enough that it'll only really be reflected in small games where both sides have equal economy and equal skill and are making nothing but Stumpy and Raider where the Stumpy player will eventually win over time.

Nonsense. It matters at all levels of playing even if it doesnt show very clearly through all the noise of noob mistakes to a casual observer. When it comes to economy advantage, as long as the game is not practically won, the difference between the 2 plays a part if they are built, always. Arms fast building unit is stumpy while cores fastbuilding unit is gator or leveler, when they have the energy for it.
And in tight games its pretty clearly represented always, when arm player must strive for the situation to make most of his stumpy advantage and core tries to avoid arm from getting a big enough stumpy ball before he has levs or blades to counter it.
Which makes for a much more dynamic game than more closely mirrored factions. I think most would agree its more fun to play arm vs core game than a mirror match.

I don't personally think it's as big a problem as some people make it out to be, I've never seen a game where the outcome was determined only by the difference in cost between these tanks.

Games outcome is never determined only by 1 thing so yeah. But obviously it matters alot in any game where these tanks are built.

But that doesnt mean it should necessarily be fixed changed.


And comparing morty and fido isnt really fair since mortys cost is so crazy. 382m/2000e/5100bt means it spends metal about fastest of all useful combat units while using hardly any e at all. So its the perfect unit when youre just gotten t2. While fido in contrast does a nice job skirmishing vs t1 units and t1 defenses, its hard to get them out in decent numbers when you could as well make a fatboy.

[mar3moset]

This forum really needs a special rule against people trying to divert the conversation into one about CA in every single thread

Stumpy are better than Raider however the actual difference is small enough that it'll only really be reflected in small games where both sides have equal economy and equal skill and are making nothing but Stumpy and Raider where the Stumpy player will eventually win over time.

I don't personally think it's as big a problem as some people make it out to be, I've never seen a game where the outcome was determined only by the difference in cost between these tanks.

(Generic disclaimer: This opinion does not mean that they'll never be fixed...)

Most of what you state is accurate but comparing to other labs like a CORE vehicle lab versus an ARM K-bot lab or vice versa the ARM lab will make short work of even the most hardy CORE tier one K-bot builds I have witnessed, even when the CORE tier one K-bots are supposedely the CORE's tier one stong point (I think) was set to be K-bots. (If Im wrong correct me.) But yeah their vehicle on vehicle lab is quite balanced excluding some differences with their engineers.

But when it comes to K-BOTS on VEHICLES ARM will sweep away most CORE K-bot attempts with Flashes considering their cost is low and can be produced quickly enough in the early game to rival the numbers of K-bots, considering the CORE Storm's projectile may be effective but if it misses the initial shot then the storm is out of luck, so possibly the Rocket Launcher k-bots on both sides could get their projectile speeds increased or have a faster reload speed at the cost of their range.

[JohannesH]

Who are you mar3moset, and why should anyone count on you to have any significant understanding of this game?

btw Alba did not say stumpy costs more e than raider, please read again, thank you.

[mar3moset]

Who are you mar3moset, and why should anyone count on you to have any significant understanding of this game?

I've stated alot already haven't I? Besides the names Anonymous & John Doe were already taken, I'd rather be judged based on the Information I post rather then based on who I am.