floating mex vs underwater mex

[1v0ry_k1ng]

Yes, its a change and BA hates change, but a floating mex sure would solve alot of gameplay problems with sea gameplay and sea/hover/air interaction.

model, script etc are all handy, Im sure there is the non-retarded model without the base going all the way to the bottom of the ocean still hanging around.

BA aint no democracy so I suppose this is adressed to fatty; what are the arguments against it?

[Beherith]

Imo what is the argument FOR it.
You have 0 proof or even reasoning that floating mex will in any way make sea more balanced vs others. Your just throwing it out there like its omgitwudbecool.
Play some games on the map Schizo shores if your interested in BA land vs sea.

[JohannesH]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=21877
Rather do this

UW mexes is how the current sea mex maps play, and while you might not like that theyre not designed to work with floating mex. And there are people who like playing sea maps as they are now.

Its not about just land vs sea though, sea vs sea is equally important.

[Regret]

what are the arguments against it?

a) It would discourage expansion even more as mexes could get raided by scouts. It is already a race for early sea rape in every game. Commander can only reclaim / capture / build torps (huge cost) to defend base against scouts / corvettes.

b) It would make sea vulnerable early on against other tiers due to air / hover raiding mexes.

c) Floating moho mexes would be ugly.

As was said, you didn't provide any argument for implementing it.

[ginekolog]

I dont know where do ppl see problems???

I play sea in 50% of games and it works great. Land can kill sea (hover, air, nukes, bb) and sea can kill land too (ships, air, hover, amphibs).

There are no problems in 3v3 + or FFA games.. maybe u see diffirent for 1v1's ?

[JohannesH]

There are no problems in 3v3 + or FFA games.. maybe u see diffirent for 1v1's ?

Sea works nicely 1v1 when you play good maps like sands or coast to coast.

Problem is, IK doesnt play BA

[1v0ry_k1ng]

I play it proxy through the forums

[hunterw]

an open sea map with nothing but sea is not fun. it should be - an open land map with nothing but land is hours and hours of entertainment. sea is balanced for 1v1 sands of war and nothing else.

WHY SEA SUCKS:

1. microing sea sucks because pathing, turnradius, speed, and turnspeed of boats suck cock. watching your t2 ship leave its shipyard is often comically pitiful when surrounded by 15 construction ships on guard, which btw, floating nanoturrets for the love of fuck.

2. underwater mex are not raidable, especially early on. the soonest raids on any underwater mex is either a 500 metal slow-as-fuck submarine, or a construction ship that builds a sonar on top if it so it can eat it. compare either of these scenarios to a wezel vs land mex. sands of war has no underwater mex, and this is no surprise. CA definitely got this right, these mex need to float, or there needs to be a way to raid them. As an aside, submermerged comm is literally defenseless when underwater and has little maneuverability, a stark contrast from land comm. Torpedo launchers are much more expensive than LLTs with extremely slow projectiles, and need a supporting unit to even have LOS to its firing range iirc. This all adds up to a very different game from the land BA we all know and love, and the consensus is that it's a crappier one.

3. ocean players have limited means of assaulting land players, and to a certain extent, vice versa. No bertha ships and no nukes means no long range means of assailing a land opponent late-game. in land/water maps, water is virtually always the last area to die in every single game. land is always highly contested since its more valuable, and sea just lingers on and is a pain in the ass to wipe out after the inevitable end of the game as soon as all land is conquered. I will admit other scenarios occur, such as in FFA games and the like where one player sits in the sea and ecospams, all of which isn't easily raidable. This fulfills the vice versa scenario - now neither land nor water can successfully raid each other which leads to super boring porc which, when given equal footing, land should nearly always win.

Unlesss ocean is rebalanced, it is best used sparingly for amphib and hover routes in team maps as far as I'm concerned. Look at all the most popular maps and you'll notice that very few have any appreciable amount of ocean (meant for ship building). SSB, and new folsom are the only two that come to my mind.

PS does damaging water hurt hovers?

[1v0ry_k1ng]

ok, so there is an argument for:

floating mex are easily raided by hovers, sea and air and stop eco porc stalemates. sea just needs a decent floating defence (floating beamer) ^_^

[Pxtl]

... and at that point you've got CA (floating mexes, most cheap land defenses are buildable on water except for the LLT).

Alternately, just add sonar and a barely-effective depthcharge launcher (like wezel-laser strength) on some existing raiding units. Not enough to fight subs, but enough to take out underwater structures if there are no defenses and you have time to burn.

[Tribulex]

yeah you have 1 small part of ca, minus the horrid artwork/graphics/lua (i say this in jest stop bawing)

hunterw's post rocks. PLAY HUNTER'S MAPS! ALL THE OTHER MAPS SU......

[Saktoth]

Whats the argument for implimenting it? BA is balanced around Comet Catcher, which has many parallels to sea because it is a large area with minimal chokepoints. You want to make sea more fun and keep it in the BA 'model', cometcatcher is a good example, and the raider game is vital to comet catcher.

Im not saying this is a one-change solution to sea and it will be brilliant afterwards. We did it in CA and we still have problems.

Rather do this

Thats just a bug, do that too, certainly.

UW mexes is how the current sea mex maps play, and while you might not like that theyre not designed to work with floating mex. And there are people who like playing sea maps as they are now.

Frankly, sea maps dont play at all, except for maps with no sea metal like SoW. They dont have 3-mex starting positions, they dont have any kind of interest like close shorelines or bays or islands to add interest, they are so bad.

a) It would discourage expansion even more as mexes could get raided by scouts. It is already a race for early sea rape in every game.

The problem with 'sea rape' is that you cannot make any gains once you lose the initial rush in the sea: Easier raiding will help here.

b) It would make sea vulnerable early on against other tiers due to air / hover raiding mexes.

True, that may be a problem. However, it also gives options for taking territory off a ship player (which is difficult now).

c) Floating moho mexes would be ugly.

Why have them? By that stage you will have more than enough antisub support to kill the mohos, this is about the early raider game.

1. microing sea sucks because pathing, turnradius, speed, and turnspeed of boats suck cock.

turninplace=0. Totally solves this problem, but it will radically change how sea plays (subs are waay easier to dodge).

watching your t2 ship leave its shipyard is often comically pitiful when surrounded by 15 construction ships on guard, which btw, floating nanoturrets for the love of fuck.

Other solutions: Increase nano range, decrease ship size, make naval engineers more expensive so they take up less space but have the same BP/cost as conships.

PS does damaging water hurt hovers?

Depends how its done.

[hunterw]

Depends how its done.

??

In BA I meant

[zwzsg]

Still depends how it's done.

The map decides it.

-New .smd command MAP/WATER/WaterDamage. Indicates the amount of damage per second units take for being in "water". Make it >1000 to prevent ground units from entering water entirely, >10000 prevents hovers from moving over water.

So actually, hovers can't be damaged by water, just they may be unable to move over it.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

underwater mex are not raidable, especially early on. the soonest raids on any underwater mex is either a 500 metal slow-as-fuck submarine, or a construction ship that builds a sonar on top if it so it can eat it. compare either of these scenarios to a wezel vs land mex. sands of war has no underwater mex, and this is no surprise.

Frankly, sea maps dont play at all, except for maps with no sea metal like SoW. They dont have 3-mex starting positions, they dont have any kind of interest like close shorelines or bays or islands to add interest, they are so bad.

yup.

so: floating mex

the biggest problem with it suggested here is interaction with hovers, not really sure how you would go about fixing that besides floating laser towers.

[pintle]

If any of you ever played 1v1 on Blue Comet (or any "proper" sea map), I suspect that you wouldn't be arguing against IK.

Both sands and blue planet (the only maps I have ever seen played BA sea 1v1) fail horribly as examples for balancing sea eco.

[Regret]

If any of you ever played 1v1 on Blue Comet (or any "proper" sea map), I suspect that you wouldn't be arguing against IK.

Both sands and blue planet (the only maps I have ever seen played BA sea 1v1) fail horribly as examples for balancing sea eco.

There is no "proper" map. There is individual preference as to how things are supposed to be done. Feel free to make a renamed fork of BA with said changes included and see how well it plays and how people like it.

Suggesting something without any argument supporting it (raiding sea is already overpowered) and several arguments against it is no way to get your point across successfully. Patting your forumer pals on the butt wont cut it either.

[Pxtl]

@IK

I still think that the better solution than floating mexes would just to add barely-useful DCs and sonar to a handful of units (like the vettes, swatters, and thunders). Not enough to fight subs, but enough to raid metal extractors.

But I'm not even sure this is solving the right problem. Imho, the big probelm with sea is not that raiding mexes is impossible, but that raiding the home base is too easy. There's no struggle for territory with sea, just a straight-up decapitation.

[JohannesH]

If any of you ever played 1v1 on Blue Comet (or any "proper" sea map), I suspect that you wouldn't be arguing against IK.

Both sands and blue planet (the only maps I have ever seen played BA sea 1v1) fail horribly as examples for balancing sea eco.

Balancing around blue comet fails so hard.

Balance should aim to fine-tuning the maps that are liked right now, or to add more possibilities to ways new maps can play.

[hunterw]

Balance should aim to fine-tuning the maps that are liked right now,

Done. Maps that are liked right now have no water, or are SoW.