Less metal. Cmon! - Page 3

Less metal. Cmon!

Discuss maps & map creation - from concept to execution to the ever elusive release.

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Kuroneko
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Joined: 03 Jan 2005, 05:32

Post by Kuroneko »

Targ Collective wrote:They're a lot weaker - a couple of shots from an AK or Peewee will take them down. This balances it out - people tend to go Solar because these plants generate a dependable, constant amount, and can take a battering. Personally it'd take an average generation of 30 to 40 to convince me to go wind.
A little weakness is easily compensated with DTs.

And wind plants are dependable if they make a min of 7.
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Targ Collective
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Joined: 12 Nov 2005, 14:16

Post by Targ Collective »

They leave too much up to chance, to my mind. When you've massed out on Annihilators you'll be praying that production doesn't ebb at the wrong moment.

And you need to use more space to get an equivalent production ratio.
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ThundershockeD
Posts: 25
Joined: 22 Nov 2005, 10:54

Post by ThundershockeD »

I'm an advocate of the small patch small radius style (OTA) as seen in comet catcher, painted desert and a few others. Very enjoyable maps. Also it allows the map-maker to have more control over placing the best strategic points.
SecurE
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 23:49

Post by SecurE »

OTA style metal patches obviously has it advantages, especially as it makes it much easier to control the flow of metal from the mapmakers perspective, I don't you should scrap the Spring style metal concept just because of that though.

On the wind issue I belive somewhere around 0-20 or 0-30 is pretty reasonable for a map where you want wind to be the "best" option, which it wasn't on all TA maps. Although wind was viable on most maps with the expection of the moon maps.
Relying on wind for your energy needs has always been a risky move though, even on maps where it has proven to be useful, because you might just get stuck with all of your generators giving an output of +1, thus ruining your economy for the moment. I hope it stays this way in TA, and personally I find the suggestion that you'd need 30-40 as an average output for wind to be viable quite odd, as online play in TA has shown that's not true.
Just for reference, two maps where almost only wind was used in TA are GoW and PD. In GoW I belive the wind varied between 1 to 27, while on PD it was between 1 (or 0, not sure) to 24.

I really should ask one of the old OTA players to know for sure how they looked on the viability of wind as I myself never was never better than average. From what I've discussed so far though, most seems to agree that once the average income goes to 7 or above, wind quickly becomes the better option. Some do favor having a few solars just as a backup, but overall wind quickly becomes the better option for your main source of energy income. It can lead to the added investment of energy storages though.

From this you can easily come to your own conclusions, there are however some minor points that I would want to add. First of, you have to take into account that solars in XTA doesn't cost any energy at all, this is however something that mostly comes into play if your current source of energy is getting destroyed, so you lack energy.
The other thing I want to add is a short overview of the advantages of the two different sources of energy, ordered by (from my point of view and without taking into account the lack of energy cost for the XTA solar) importance;
1) The wind generator costs less, only 1/3 of a solar. An average income of 7 will thus already put it as the better choice theoretically.
2) The wind generator builds quicker, this means you will start to get your energy income faster too which might matter quite a bit.
3) The solar gives you a constant supply of energy that does not vary.
4) The solar is better armored than the wind generator. I'm not sure if 3 wind generators have more health than a single solar though (you also have to take into account that they are often built next to each other, so when one goes it will damage the ones next to it).
5) A single solar takes less space than 3 wind generators. Once the average wind income from a single generator is 20 or above this points becomes moot though, but before that it can potentially be important on certain maps.
6) A solar usually leaves a "better" wreckage, thus yielding you more metal when you reclaim it. This of course means it was destroyed in the first place, which never is that good.

This is all disregarding the tidal of course, but that's another matter entirely as it needs water to be built. It works by the same principle as the solar however, the difference being that the wind generator is only › the cost of the tidal. There are also some other differences compared to the solar of course (size, armor etc), but generally it should be pretty straightforward to decide if its worth the cost or not if you already understand the relation between solars and wind generators.

One more note about wind, if I remember correctly. In OTA the wind was highest on the barren worlds (ice/desert etc), while it wasn't a real option on moon maps.

I changed my comments to reflect reality a bit better ;)
Last edited by SecurE on 24 Nov 2005, 23:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Post by Forboding Angel »

As much as I hate to admit it, I think the river dale concept of wind is the best. It's really really good, but unreliable. I have set my new map to be wind of 1 - 30. I might make it 1 - 40, I dunno.
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Min3mat
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Joined: 17 Nov 2004, 20:19

Post by Min3mat »

for xta i reckon having wind between 1 and 25 or 20 encourages diversity in energy without making windgens way better than solars.
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PauloMorfeo
Posts: 2004
Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53

Post by PauloMorfeo »

Kuroneko wrote:In XTA, wind plants cost roughly 1/3 of a solar. So, with a min wind of 7 an equivilent cost of wind generators can produce much more than solars. This, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I believe that min wind should be closer to 3 or so.
If you're refering to the wiki about resource balance in maps, it seems what i wrote is not very clear.
PauloMorfeo wrote:...
- The amount of wind, is usually 1(min)~30(max) or some other min~max values that average between 7 and 15
...
What i say in it is that the standard in maps is having the wind vary between:
1 of min-wind and 30 of max-wind
That makes for an average of 15,5 wind power. Next, i say that other values can be used that have an average of between 7 and 15, not that the min-wind and the max-wind should be 7-15.

- Regarding Spring+XTA, they use up energy to build while solars do not.
- In all mods, they are extremely more fragile than solars.
- They're output is variable. This can make crushing blows to your economy when in times of low output (nano-stalls, unusable D-Guns, unusable LaserTowers, etc).

Anyway, wind colectores were always, in almost all maps, more cost effective than solars even though with those drawbacks that must be considered.

But, a maximum average of 15 as a standard for maps may, indeed, be somewhat too much.
SecurE
Posts: 87
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 23:49

Post by SecurE »

I've changed my earlier post to, as it says, reflect reality a bit better.
I found out what should be the real values used on PD and GoW, and I've also added a bit of thoughts about the solars and wind generators. Most of it should hold true, though its not like I've studied it throughoutly so errors will surely exist. I also added it to the mapbalance section in the wiki for now, even though I belive it could be rewritten to be more consice and informative. My post was after all simply my thoughts for the moment put into words and nothing really that fancy.
Anyway, the wiki is free for all, so change it or remove it as you wish, I do however belive that some kind of short explanations about how things really work might be in order. New mapmakers shouldn't simply follow standards, they should hopefully also understand why the standards got the values they have, and also how it affects the game.

I'm sure there are grammatical and/or spelling errors there too, just thought I'd mention it as a disclaimer.

Oh, thanks to heze and the folk on #gnug by the way ;)
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