Map Making (Tiles ?)

Krux · Post by **Krux** » 21 Nov 2005, 17:18

I made a map with Terragen and i already a 2024 *2024 big bmp as a ground, a heightmap and a Metalmap, but for what do i need tiles, and where do i use them?

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 21 Nov 2005, 17:28

I suggest you read this topic

http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2897

Forget the wiki's

Edit: :D They are incomplete and won't help you much if you are new (Like me). If you have any questions add them to that thread. If I can answer them I will try to but weaver and mufdvr have been extremely patient with me... Not to mention neuralize and decimator.

Hope it helps

BTW afik you don't need tiles per se. Your texture map (2024 ground image) is the tile/texture map. A bit hard to understand but don't let it warp your brain. :D

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Decimator · Post by **Decimator** » 21 Nov 2005, 19:40

Tiles are a very good thing, but they're just the texture map divided up into 32x32 sections, starting at 0,0. Using a repeating 32x32 texture or a multiple of 32x32 greatly reduces filesize.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 21 Nov 2005, 19:58

Deci, if you do that how do you determine map size?

FizWizz · Post by **FizWizz** » 21 Nov 2005, 20:10

map sizes are in multiples of 512. 32 goes into 512 evenly so it isn't an issue.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 21 Nov 2005, 20:15

ok maybe I didn't ask the right question :D

how does your maximum map size get determined if you use tiles.

For example say I wanna make an 8x8 map with 32.32 pixel tiles. How do I tell it what total size the map will be?

Am I making any sense?

FizWizz · Post by **FizWizz** » 21 Nov 2005, 20:20

since map sizes are multiples of 512 pixels, an 8x8 map would be 8(512)x8(512) pixels, or 4096x4096 pixels. if you want to know how many 32-pixel tiles that is, then 4096/32 is 128 tiles. hopefully that answers your question.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 20:28

Forboding Angel wrote:ok maybe I didn't ask the right question :D

how does your maximum map size get determined if you use tiles.

For example say I wanna make an 8x8 map with 32.32 pixel tiles. How do I tell it what total size the map will be?

Am I making any sense?

If you make the entire map out of the same 32 by 32 pixle tile then the game will tile the whole thing with one 32x32 file and only have to store 32x32 pixles of information + whatever multiple # of tiles there is. It would be a very small map, but it would also be very gross.

What you want is a unique map with as many repeating tiles as possible hidden away from view.

What this means is say you have a grass field that is a plasma cloud that covers a huge portion of your map, space off as many 32x32 sections in it as possible, and then paint them all in with a tiling grass texture. Then leave some space around the outside to blur without going into your sectioned off tiles.

Spring tiles don't have to be aligned to a 32x32 grid, if there is another matching tile on the map the compiler will find it and section it off. The more fields of random plasma you can replace with a repeating tile the more compressed your map will be, but on the down side your map also gets uglier and uglier the more knowticably repeating your textures get. The trick is to find the middle ground where useless detail is removed, but the inportant stuff that really makes the map look good is kept in.

Weaver · Post by **Weaver** » 21 Nov 2005, 20:49

The smaller your tiles are the better you map will compress. However the returns diminish eventually, as many unique tiles are needed where one texture joins another.

In the example each texture uses only 4 32x32 tiles each just 8 tiles! But there are 63 tiles (shaded red) that contain a fraction of each (transitional area), 71 tiles total. The result is a frquently repeating tile that might not look so nice that is not much smaller than somrtthing that could have looked better.

Doubling the texture sizes would only have added 24 tiles (95 total) and would much better.

Every time you add a new texture, or increase the transitional area the number of tiles goes up.

My first released map Death Valley used over 50,000 tiles and only compressed down to 25MB, after a bit of work but still keeping 5 textures and lots of transitional area I got it under 10MB.

Moral if any...

There is a quality versus file size compromise depending on, size of map, number of textures, size of textures, and transitional areas.

There are no rules, just your skill and experience as a mapper.

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 21 Nov 2005, 21:33

Forboding Angel wrote:
They are complete and utter crap.

OK, I'll admit that they are out of date and dont tell you about tiles, but then as tiles arn't needed for the basic map maker i think that thats a bit harsh.

Also, you said teh same in taht thread you were pointing to!

Now I'm a fair guy, but I'd liek to point out that all this stuff is free. Like people put in there time for Free. For nothing. I wrote the only finshed and the first map guild, about 7 moths ago, and since then there have been hundreds of changes, and yet its still actully quite relevent! And it does still tell you all you need to know, unless your using Mothers map conv and it says if you are ask around.

How do you think I felt when I made my first map and theer was no guides what so ever and pretty much no explanations either.

Your pissed off, what about me??!?

And befor you say, well you havnt been helping me with my probs, strangly enough I hav'nt answered because otehrs have been doing an amiable job of helping you.

aGorm

(yes this is a rant but I can't let that sort of ungraciosness go unanswered)

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 21 Nov 2005, 21:57

imo we should no longer help this much on the forums and just point them to the wiki..

EDIT

and i think if ppl hav time to answer the questions here. it would be better if they put the answer in the wiki and then refer to that!

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:02

It's not ungracious...

It is truth. To the newbie mapper all the wiki does is confuse and provide part of the information known. I have spent a week going between 5 (I think thats the total number we are up to now) wiki tutorials and still didn't have hald my questions answered.

All I am saying is that "refer to the wiki" is not a good response to a newbie mapper.

BTW agorm, your's is one of the better wiki's but it needs a ton of work. I will help with the wiki's as soon as I am comfortable that I know my ass from my face in mapping.

Until then, I am thinking that for ppl absolutely new to mapping that thread will solve a lot of questions. I don't want anyone to go through what I have gone through the past week.

It's not meant personally, so don't take it that way. I appreciate the work you and others have done. And as I stated in my other thread I royally thank weaver decimator, nuralize and mufdvr for all their help. If it was not for them I would never have gotten my first map to compile.

BTW there are so many different versions of mapconv on FU, and most of them don't even provide everything you need. Like the nvidia file, mapper.bat, etc. All most of them include is mapconv which is useless all by itself. But nowhere in the wiki are links provided. I had to whine and scrape and bare my soul to finally get a (correctly working) and totally compete mapconv.

Once again, don't take it personally, it's not meant to be that way.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:05

Well we all learned the hardway.... and u got a less hard way.. so why don't you write a fine tutorial after u finished your learning curve..

Hey we all got lives and are also busy with this project for NOTHING..

But i do agree we need one uniform mapconv!

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:05

Well, I have two up theer the messed up one, and my new one, but I only got as far as making a heightmap so far, and theres stacks more to do...

Sorry about flipping, but you knowwhen people make coments you think unfair and dont realy take into account the fact there sort of right??

thats what i did.

aGorm

Krux · Post by **Krux** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:06

OK i made a map and the texture map looks good

but it is a bit bigger that this image. If i have understood coorrectly i don't need tiles.

Now i have everything i need to convert my map, but excuse me for my stupid question, where can i dowload the converter.

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:17

HAHAHAHAHAHA... Ok now someone realy needs to finsh a wiki tutorial...
http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=681
http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=1234
ones the upgarde...

or mothers but i cant find that right now...

and then read teh wiki cause it definaly in there sort of if not look in teh forums befor you ask because its been explaned many times...

aGorm

Weaver · Post by **Weaver** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:21

Krux wrote:If i have understood coorrectly i don't need tiles.

Now i have everything i need to convert my map, but excuse me for my stupid question, where can i dowload the converter.

You are correct, you can use any picture. For a very small map this wont hurt too much, as mapconv may well find some tiles anyway. (Infact it changes the method for very small maps)

You will see a line like this.
Creating tiles 821/1024 100%

Which means it made 821 tiles from 1024 possible saving 203.

The standard mapconv
http://fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=1234
Tends to attract a lot of trees to green areas, but well supported otherwise.

Mothers last one
http://fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=1413
More control over grass and trees but a little more tricky to get to grips with.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:41

NOIZE

trust me I'm planning on it. :D

Agorm, thanks for understanding dude. I wasn't attempting to be a prick.

krux,

wow that looks great dude!

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:43

Just dont tread on my toes when youi make your mapconv. Of course mine will be teh best naturlly anyway...

aGorm

hrmph · Post by **hrmph** » 21 Nov 2005, 22:55

What we really need is an updated Wiki (even my knowledge is outdated by now when it comes to features,skybox,etc), and of course a Sticky in the map making forum pointing to that page.

Spring RTS Engine

Map Making (Tiles ?)

Map Making (Tiles ?)