BA hovers are overpowered

[Renofox]

I guess anyone who's played water maps in BA has noticed this, but now it has become completely ridiculous. Ships are good for nothing but economy while sea combat is reduced to hovers fighting other hovers.

Either the hovers need to be nerfed or the ships need to be buffed.

[Pxtl]

On-topic: corvettes rape hovers, particularly if you micro them into point-blank range. Plus, ships have L2. The big thing is not to over-rely on restroyers, since their depth-charges can't harm hovers.

[Saktoth]

Depends on the map. With long, wide beaches, hovers are really frustrating to stop- use good radar coverage and a lot of corvettes. Remember that vettes take e to fire, have a surplus and MM. Subs also prevent hovers from being able to make any serious contest for sea metal, and UWmexes prevent them from raiding a ship players acquisitions (though if they can get on land, they'll rape the land economy which is often more significant).

Remember hovers take a while to get up due to the tech tree thing. Early on, get a scout boat, and patrol the enemy shore. If he has no shipyard, you can be mostly sure he has gone hovers or air (Or possibly a late ship start). While he gets one of these up, you can expand naked and take heaps of the sea metal.

[Jazcash]

Anacondas are like water sumos. There are a little OP, but they're pretty expensive too so that makes up for it.

[Renofox]

In my experience, no amount of microing can make corvettes equal to hovers. For example, on one game of FolsonDamDeluxe, I had all the sea mexes plus all of the reclaimed rocks to power the commander and two construction ships assisting a shipyard pushing nothing but corvettes. I still got overrun by zero-strategy straight line of hovers.

I also reclaimed all of the wreckage and microed all of my corvettes precisely to point-blank rage around the hovers, but there simply is no way to match them in cost nor firepower.

[Jazcash]

In my experience, no amount of microing can make corvettes equal to hovers. For example, on one game of FolsonDamDeluxe, I had all the sea mexes plus all of the reclaimed rocks to power the commander and two construction ships assisting a shipyard pushing nothing but corvettes. I still got overrun by zero-strategy straight line of hovers.

I also reclaimed all of the wreckage and microed all of my corvettes precisely to point-blank rage around the hovers, but there simply is no way to match them in cost nor firepower.

With Corvettes you have to micro them so the side of them is facing the enemy to allow both lasers to shoot at the same time. If you're approaching head on, only the front laser can shoot.

[Pxtl]

@Jaz - my approach with 'vettes is to simply micro them into the thick of the enemy, right up to point-blank range. In all likelihood this will expose a tank to their rear laser, and will double the damage by avoiding laser-range-falloff.

[Renofox]

With Corvettes you have to micro them so the side of them is facing the enemy to allow both lasers to shoot at the same time. If you're approaching head on, only the front laser can shoot.

Taken into account, as I have experience playing sea. Its still simply not enough.

[Saktoth]

With Corvettes you have to micro them so the side of them is facing the enemy to allow both lasers to shoot at the same time. If you're approaching head on, only the front laser can shoot.

It may appear this way, but this is not true. Corvettes have no turret angle restrictions.

This canard about range damage faloff in Corvettes is highly misleading. It exists to compensate for the fact that the corvette is perfectly accurate over range. The hovercraft, however, is not. You will do very slightly less damage, but you will also TAKE MUCH less damage if you stay at max range from the enemy and skirmish him, while turning at 45-90 degree increments (to prevent your ship from slowing down) and jinking.

A decade (378m 2055e) vs two anacondas (538m 4888 e), at point blank range, will kill just one of them. With really good micro, staying at range and jinking, it can kill both of them.

Remember to have sufficient e to power all your corvette lasers though!

A hover player who has no sea mexes must have a lot of land mexes in order to keep up with you in economy. Remember that this is taking away from the other land players (and in certain asymmetrical maps like SSB, may mean he actually has more economy than you).

[Jazcash]

With Corvettes you have to micro them so the side of them is facing the enemy to allow both lasers to shoot at the same time. If you're approaching head on, only the front laser can shoot.

It may appear this way, but this is not true. Corvettes have no turret angle restrictions.

This canard about range damage faloff in Corvettes is highly misleading. It exists to compensate for the fact that the corvette is perfectly accurate over range. The hovercraft, however, is not. You will do very slightly less damage, but you will also TAKE MUCH less damage if you stay at max range from the enemy and skirmish him, while turning at 45-90 degree increments (to prevent your ship from slowing down) and jinking.

A decade (378m 2055e) vs two anacondas (538m 4888 e), at point blank range, will kill just one of them. With really good micro, staying at range and jinking, it can kill both of them.

Remember to have sufficient e to power all your corvette lasers though!

A hover player who has no sea mexes must have a lot of land mexes in order to keep up with you in economy. Remember that this is taking away from the other land players (and in certain asymmetrical maps like SSB, may mean he actually has more economy than you).

You do realise this is BA we're talking about? Have you ever played BA before?

[Saktoth]

You do realise this is BA we're talking about? Have you ever played BA before?

I have 60k minutes, a plat star, in BA. The sea game was my speciality, after Lord Matt introduced me to it, and the current balance (esp re hovers) is mostly in response to the games det and i would play in SoW.

Corvettes were buffed, and FHLT's range was reduced to the same as the HLT as a consequence of our feedback.

If you would like, I can give you a game.

[Pako]

Hovers are actually underpowered against sea because they can't kill the mexes. I think that microed hovers will kill about 2x their worth of corvettes and microed corvettes will kill over 4x worth hovers.

Corvettes were buffed, and FHLT's range was reduced to the same as the HLT as a consequence of our feedback.

That is why FHLT suck so much?

[Gota]

Perhaps that's what happens when you balance sea according to maps like GoW-defenses immidietly need a nerf as oopose to playing an all out sea maps which is bigger than 8x8.

[Saktoth]

Perhaps that's what happens when you balance sea according to maps like GoW-defenses immidietly need a nerf as oopose to playing an all out sea maps which is bigger than 8x8.

There are none, or no good ones.

That is why FHLT suck so much?

All it lost is some range. Once you realised he was going hovers (scout boat knows all) you could just pump out a few construction ships, reclaim your factory, and then HLT up his coast. He'd have two up before you even got your factory down. It made hovers completely useless.

With the old FHLT range, hover artillery couldnt even outrange it. You were toast.

Worse, det started to do this vs a ship start- dont get me started on that.

You can actually still do this, its just not quite what it used to be, outranging all artillery.

[Saktoth]

Textbook SoW, and why the commander is anything but defenceless.

If anything, the comm is hilariously OP this game.

[Gota]

Did some destroyer or sub get dgunned?
I cant watch the game ATM but one game is in no way a measurement of anything.

how can you deny the fact a commander is less powerful in the sea?
the com's most powerful weapon is the dgun and it cannot use it when its in the water(neither can he use his laser).
What else is there to argue about?

[Saktoth]

Did some destroyer or sub get dgunned?
I cant watch the game ATM but one game is in no way a measurement of anything.

how can you deny the fact a commander is less powerful in the sea?
the com's most powerful weapon is the dgun and it cannot use it when its in the water(neither can he use his laser).
What else is there to argue about?

1 destroyer, 3 corvettes, and a shipyard.

And that is, as i say, textbook. I cant tell you how many times flop has d-gunned that shipyard in just that way, or how many subs and vette rushes have been foiled by dets cloaked com and good intel.

Whats more, its not insta-lose as soon as a jeffy gets in among your econ like on land. If you have most of your econ on land, only a 900 cost destroyer can seriously damage you.

The com can be much more powerful on sea. He is invisible and invulnerable to your mainline unit (vettes), allowing him to expand with practical impunity, and his d-gun will routinely kill 300-900 cost in units, not just the 100 here or there you get from flash.

Most maps just have shallow shores so you cant make the shipyard anywhere near land, and no islands or bays for the com to stand in. Bad for so many reasons (like subs sniping shipyard outside TL range by hitting it in the rear).

[Gota]

Did some destroyer or sub get dgunned?
I cant watch the game ATM but one game is in no way a measurement of anything.

how can you deny the fact a commander is less powerful in the sea?
the com's most powerful weapon is the dgun and it cannot use it when its in the water(neither can he use his laser).
What else is there to argue about?

1 destroyer, 3 corvettes, and a shipyard.

And that is, as i say, textbook. I cant tell you how many times flop has d-gunned that shipyard in just that way, or how many subs and vette rushes have been foiled by dets cloaked com and good intel.

The com can be much more powerful on sea. He is invisible and invulnerable to your mainline unit (vettes), and his d-gun will routinely kill 300-900 cost in units, not just the 100 here or there you get from flash.

Most maps just have shallow shores so you cant make the shipyard anywhere near land, and no islands or bays for the com to stand in. Bad for so many reasons (like subs sniping shipyard outside TL range by hitting in in the rear).

Since available map types shift i prefer to judge the com in a more general sense.
If we do take maps into account than there are other maps but GoW.

[Saktoth]

Since available map types shift i prefer to judge the com in a more general sense.
If we do take maps into account than there are other maps but SoW.

You're right. Flooded valley and Coasts are good too.

The rest are all to sea maps as Speedmetal or Greenfields are to land maps. You can play them, sure, but they arent how its meant to be done and you'd be stupid to base your balance off of them.

[Pxtl]

Bring back the AA1.44 Short Ranged Bombardment Ships as L1 units and re-buff the FHLT. Hovers _should_ get raped by FHLTs. It's payoff for the fact that they're immune to torp launchers. Besides that, FHLTs aren't that tough - they're tougher than HLTs, but it's proportional to their higher cost. They can be overrun by superior numbers.

@Saktoth

The problem is that the comm is so damned slow underwater or climbing hills, so very often getting him to put up a DC-launcher in a good location will take him out of action for over a minute. And I still don't understand what kind of player lets his vettes get into d-gun range from an exposed comm. But yes, most maps suffer from having long beaches and high cliffs, meaning the only place to put a TL is on a high cliff, which means a long walk for the comm and a nasty minimum-range zone that a player can sneak into.