Regarding the FPS "gimmick"

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:16

Why do we want an FPS advantage in a massively traditional RTS?

Should mods have control over FPS type factors? Sure. Should XTA install a FPS mode advantage? ARE YOU INSANE?!?!

Targ Collective · Post by **Targ Collective** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:21

No, it wouldn't be abused. Instead it would become a neccessary part of the game - you MUST use it because your enemy will and you'd better have countermeasures! This is what game balance is all about.

I did suggest controlling the 'guard' through use of a formation AI and grouping. Just picking up everyone would be silly, you're right.

I'm not talking mods, I'm talking a standard Spring feature to incorporate another layer of complexity and strategy into gameplay. The game is not tactical enough (tactics being the minutia of battle rather than the pumping out and organisation of forces, which is strategy) and this would add another facet to the game.

Don't go into this with your eyes and ears closed. Instead think about what this would mean.

EDIT: SwiftSpear, remember that TA is only being used in testing here. Spring is aiming to be the 'best RTS game ever'. Adding more weighting to the FPS side of things would help that, surely? I mean, what could be better than game mechanics based around this sort of RTS/FPS crossbreed? It'd blow me away, I know for sure. The last paragraph above applies to you too, I think.

The Collective

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:26

It would mean further anally raping the good name of Total Annihilation and pooing on the spring engine at the same time by adding more discusting features to the game the mods can't rip out of it due to the fact that FPS mode is ruining thier gameplay.

Which brings me back to my first point "FPS mode as a FEATURE" Good as a possible spring engine direction? yes. "FPS mode as a FEATURE" Good for XTA and the several other true blue RTS mods we have right now? ARE YOU INSANE?!?!

[edit] if this is what the ghosted building argument didn't originally look like I think it should have. No one thinks of the modders when they add discusting features into a game. If I ever have my own mod and people go "LOL I w4nt goas73d bu][Ld1in6s!" I want the goddamn option of saying "NO BITCH, THAT SHIT IS LAME!"

We need to make it a standard when adding new features... nothing that is good for XTA and thus is added as a feature must be included in all mods. Everything that is potentailly included in the spring engine doesn't nessicarly have to be added into XTA.

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:27

I am. Still doesnt mean I have to like what I see and hear. Sure, add in the ABILITY to do this. But making it standard? HELL NO. Most mods out there are RTS's. Not RTS/FPS combinations. If you made a mod combination, sure, have this implemented. But not in *TA mods.

Targ Collective · Post by **Targ Collective** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:31

Oh, I'm not suggesting wantonly breaking people's mods. I think it would make a fantastic gameplay idea though.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:34

Targ Collective wrote:Oh, I'm not suggesting wantonly breaking people's mods. I think it would make a fantastic gameplay idea though.

It sure could be, but it could also anally devistate a mod that never wanted it in the first place. Like XTA!

Targ Collective · Post by **Targ Collective** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:38

So make it a toggelable feature, on by default. It would give Spring more of a Battlezone feel. And with all the benefits and caveats I've already listed it wouldn't unbalance the game.

The Collective

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:39

Please, if unit stat boosting gets implemented, make it an optio that is off by default. Im not saying its not useful in some situations, but all the current mods are built around this NOT being on.

Targ Collective · Post by **Targ Collective** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:50

Heh, I don't know enough about Spring to code it. And by 'on by default' I mean that it goes on if the modder forgets to disable it in the Modinfo file.

The mods would work just as well with this on, as the functionality would belong to both 'sides'.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 12:58

[edit] God damn, on by default is toggle slang, not modinfo file slang. >_<

Targ Collective · Post by **Targ Collective** » 21 Nov 2005, 13:07

So where's the glossary in the Wiki?

The Collective

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 13:13

Targ Collective wrote:So where's the glossary in the Wiki?

The Collective

http://www.Wikipedia.com is as close as you can get. "On by default" is used in HTLM toggleable language, and nearly never used when talking about coding or scripting... Technically most of the TAS tags are booleans, and therefore could be seen as toggleable, but it's a really bad idea to look at coding that way, because every variable also acctually includes a secret null state that no one tells the end user about, and if a programmer forgets that his code explodes him.

Targ Collective · Post by **Targ Collective** » 21 Nov 2005, 13:23

I dabble in programming myself. As I understand it, the boolean value has these three values - True, False and Undefined. I'm basically talking about defaulting it to True if Undefined. So the code doesn't explode, you see...

The Collective

CrowJuice · Post by **CrowJuice** » 21 Nov 2005, 17:39

SwiftSpear wrote:
Targ Collective wrote:Oh, I'm not suggesting wantonly breaking people's mods. I think it would make a fantastic gameplay idea though.
It sure could be, but it could also anally devistate a mod that never wanted it in the first place. Like XTA!

"Oh no!!! That pewee is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP pewee???!!!"

Come on! It's not like a dooms day scenario! With proper balancing this feature could be tons of fun to have.

FizWizz · Post by **FizWizz** » 21 Nov 2005, 18:45

CrowJuice wrote:"Oh no!!! That pewee is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP pewee???!!!"....

"Oh no!!! That Krogoth is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP Krogoth???!!!"

stat boosting could make big units utterly devastating, so of course it would break the balance. Imagine the effect this stat-boosting idiocy would have on Final Frontier or Absolute Annihilation, which have more than just a single mega-unit!

FPS'ing is mostly an 'ooh shiny' feature. Other than novelty, the FPS system is (should be) only meant to be used by the player to take command of a unit in special cases where the player would be able to use it better than the AI would, such as d-gun rampaging, sniping, and concentrating all of a Krogoth's firepower where you want it.

Making a showcase feature of Spring more main-stream does not really meet any needs/deficiencies of the game, nor does it justify breaking the game balance, which a great deal more people are concerned about.

I would not complain if FPS stat boosting were implemented as a mod-specific feature that was disabled by default. Nor would I complain that cosmetic upgrades were done to the FPS system. I think it's just a little superfluous myself, but to each his own...

Also, FPS stat boosting may actually be pretty cool in mods that are made to accomodate it. If anyone did a more fantasy-themed mod, you could be like a god possessing your minions and imbuing them with your power.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 19:01

FizWizz wrote:
CrowJuice wrote:"Oh no!!! That pewee is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP pewee???!!!"....
"Oh no!!! That Krogoth is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP Krogoth???!!!"

stat boosting could make big units utterly devastating, so of course it would break the balance. Imagine the effect this stat-boosting idiocy would have on Final Frontier or Absolute Annihilation, which have more than just a single mega-unit!

FPS'ing is mostly an 'ooh shiny' feature. Other than novelty, the FPS system is (should be) only meant to be used by the player to take command of a unit in special cases where the player would be able to use it better than the AI would, such as d-gun rampaging, sniping, and concentrating all of a Krogoth's firepower where you want it.

Making a showcase feature of Spring more main-stream does not really meet any needs/deficiencies of the game, nor does it justify breaking the game balance, which a great deal more people are concerned about.

I would not complain if FPS stat boosting were implemented as a mod-specific feature that was disabled by default. Nor would I complain that cosmetic upgrades were done to the FPS system. I think it's just a little superfluous myself, but to each his own...

Also, FPS stat boosting may actually be pretty cool in mods that are made to accomodate it. If anyone did a more fantasy-themed mod, you could be like a god possessing your minions and imbuing them with your power.

This is exactly the example I was looking for. As a feature? Yes FPS boosting is cool, but there is no way in hell it can be made to work for every mod, I honestly doubt it could even be made to work for XTA. I think it would be great for dynasty warrior style mods, and extreamly level based RTS (picture WC3 style leveling) and those things will most likely be made possible, but it should never be a client side toggle unless the mod maker decides it should be. Mod makers need the ability to limit EVERYTHING, it's the game dev's job to create an engine that can just do anything, it's the mod maker's job to limit what the engine is doing at any given time until the game is acctually fun. TAS engine can handle INSANE hitpoint and damage figures, but what's the point if every single unit is overpowered? Mods need to be able to make the weak units and the strong. Features work exactly the same way. Even ghosted buildings can make or break a mod... sure maby none of the mods around right now, but potentially you make a mod where the principle of the game is to hide your command structure as much as possible. Let's call it hide and seek mod. Ghosted buildings would just DESTROY the gameplay.

Forboding Angel · Post by **Forboding Angel** » 21 Nov 2005, 19:15

OK

Since targ is being a complete noob I'm going to start treating him like one.

Just because you think it up doesn't mean it's a good idea. You are doing a great job of pissing people around here off.

Think, then post

BTW (sorry sy's it had to be said), if you want to play fps with boosted unit stats just play xta and build gollies or a krog. That's about as boosted as you can get.

fps a krog and lay waste

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 19:38

Forboding Angel wrote:OK

Since targ is being a complete noob I'm going to start treating him like one.

Just because you think it up doesn't mean it's a good idea. You are doing a great job of pissing people around here off.

Think, then post

BTW (sorry sy's it had to be said), if you want to play fps with boosted unit stats just play xta and build gollies or a krog. That's about as boosted as you can get.

fps a krog and lay waste

I beat a player with arm the other day after he went krog. First I built lots of berthas to keep his base contantly under pressure so he wasn't growing fast, then I saw he built a krog lab and blew it up with brawlies after he was half way through building his second krog. Then I baited his built krog out of his base with bulldogs, and when he was out of his base and had nearly killed all the bulldogs I rushed 100 someodd fighters and brawlies on the thing, it barely had time to retreat back to the flak, and the flak couldn't take down all my aircraft in time to save it.

The trick is to contain until the core player has to rely on krogoths to expand, and then take advantage of the kroggies weak factory with surgical brawlie removal raids. 5 advanced air plants can outpressure any core player, even if in the end you need to rely on primarily bulldogs for finishing.

CrowJuice · Post by **CrowJuice** » 21 Nov 2005, 20:15

FizWizz wrote:
CrowJuice wrote:"Oh no!!! That pewee is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP pewee???!!!"....
"Oh no!!! That Krogoth is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP Krogoth???!!!"

stat boosting could make big units utterly devastating, so of course it would break the balance. Imagine the effect this stat-boosting idiocy would have on Final Frontier or Absolute Annihilation, which have more than just a single mega-unit!

Not sure I mentioned a krogoth. I belive I wrote "pewee". The Krogoth could get a 5% increase in stats. So it would go like this:

"Oh no!!! That Krogoth is moving 5% faster and doing 5% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP Krogoth???!!!"

As I mentioned before, with just some balencing and checks here and there then this feature could be great.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 21 Nov 2005, 20:37

CrowJuice wrote:
FizWizz wrote:
CrowJuice wrote:"Oh no!!! That pewee is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP pewee???!!!"....
"Oh no!!! That Krogoth is moving 25-50% faster and doing 25-50% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP Krogoth???!!!"

stat boosting could make big units utterly devastating, so of course it would break the balance. Imagine the effect this stat-boosting idiocy would have on Final Frontier or Absolute Annihilation, which have more than just a single mega-unit!
Not sure I mentioned a krogoth. I belive I wrote "pewee". The Krogoth could get a 5% increase in stats. So it would go like this:

"Oh no!!! That Krogoth is moving 5% faster and doing 5% more damage! How in the world can I counter that single one OP Krogoth???!!!"

As I mentioned before, with just some balencing and checks here and there then this feature could be great.

Ah, I like that solution, not only to you force all modders to include a feature they don't want, but you also force all modders to include data that isn't backwards compatable with OTA unit formats just so thier mod acctually works with the forced feature that they don't want. Perhaps you don't realize that the game can't just populate data by itself with unit statistic input. I would NEED to add FPS statistics individually for every specific unit your way. I'm sorry crow, but I really don't like working with your imaginary game engine.

Spring RTS Engine

Regarding the FPS "gimmick"