Allow modders to disable typemaps

[Regret]

Except in my case it's a unique situation because I'm a mod maker AND a very experienced mapper.

http://web.archive.org/web/200610261910 ... reens.html
I was more experienced in highschool. This was what I released.

Prior to this I had over 200 duke nukem 3d maps.

got hired out of highschool as a freelance guy for the now defunct grimware.

made many more unreleased maps in college.

Done about 5-6 released spring maps

4-5 maps for gundam annihilation..

blah blah

The amount of maps you made has no effect on the value of what you say.



It's hilarious how people defend a hardcoded obstacle to no end.

[zwzsg]

It makes some sense to listen to people who have made mods and mods, cause they are more likely to have first hand experience dealing with the issues and shortcomings of the current system.

Where Forb was incorrect was in proclaiming he was the only one to do both mod and maps, as it's actually fairly common around here.


And of course, the numeric count isn't proportional to experience: Making a hundred bland maps following the same workflow won't teach you as much as making a couple of experimental maps where you try tons of special new things. And there's people, such as Spring devs, who never made any map but whose opinion I would still value more.

[Argh]

Code: Select all

Spring.SetTerrainTypeData(1,2.0,1.0,1.0,1.0)

Means that all Terrain Type pixel values of 1, TANK type moves at 2X normal top speed.

Code: Select all

      for xPos = startX,finishX do
         for zPos = startZ,finishZ do
            Spring.SetMapSquareTerrainType(xPos,zPos,1)
         end
      end

Sets a given square to whatever pixel value you specify, in this case to 1.

You have 255 values to play with, IIRC. They are available even if not defined in the SMD. Mappers maybe use 5-7 at most. And you may override the values in the SMD.

Please follow the above to its logical conclusion.

This is not a discussion about arbitrary moveTypes (it appears some posters don't get the difference)- adding that to the engine would be very non-trivial, so you guys need to make use of the above for now.

/thread

[Pxtl]

So, for named terraintypes, what would we have? Also, the problem is that the name of the terraintype is visible to the users. So let's say we have 5 speed-tiers:

Road, Turf (default), Sand, Mud, Swamp, Impassable.

Well, if I'm doing a winter-map, I'd want to call the tiers
Road, Hardpack, Powder, Slush, Drift, Impassable.

If I'm doing a moon map, I'd want to call the tiers
Road, Rock, Sand, Dust, Impassable.

And so on. And that's not even getting into the issues of water-terrain-types.

At this point, imho the best mapper approach is simply to keep doing what their doing, and let modders consume or discard the information as they see fit - and probably their best approach is simply to average the land-speed-values of the terraintype-type together for each terraintype, so that if something is fast for X, it becomes fast for all land units. Then they can indicate the speed in a simple tool tip (speed:1.5).

@Argh:

what about the label?

[Argh]

Well, if I'm doing a winter-map, I'd want to call the tiers
Road, Hardpack, Powder, Slush, Drift, Impassable.

If I'm doing a moon map, I'd want to call the tiers
Road, Rock, Sand, Dust, Impassable.

If you're doing something that extensive to a map (say, Gadget "weather" that completely changes the look with fancy shader stuff, which would also have gameplay effects)... well, it's easy, actually.

When a Tooltip comes in for hovering over the terrain and returning that name, it also gives the x,z location. Just get the value of the type at that point, and do a string substitution. IOW, in the SMD, typemap value 2 is "sand"... get the typemap value x,z, if 2 and we're running the "winter" random Weather Scenario, then the tooltip string forwarded to your Tooltip Widget would be "slush" or w/e.

Basically that's not an obstacle, if you're already using a Tooltip Widget of some kind, and I can't imagine somebody trying to build a modern game on this engine not doing so, frankly.

At this point, imho the best mapper approach is simply to keep doing what their doing, and let modders consume or discard the information as they see fit

This, in a nutshell. Once metal is (finally) added to the list... the map's whatever the game designers need it to be, period, and there's no conflict at all with mappers who design primarily with BA in mind. Games can just do their thing, quietly and politely, and mappers don't have to know anything about those "other games".

[Forboding Angel]

Where Forb was incorrect was in proclaiming he was the only one to do both mod and maps, as it's actually fairly common around here.

I didn't claim to be the only one, I claimed the be the most experienced (with spring mapping - for smoth's benefit, it's not like spring is the only game engine I have ever worked with)/to have done the most *maps*.

[Regret]

I didn't claim to be the only one, I claimed the be the most experienced (with spring mapping - for smoth's benefit, it's not like spring is the only game engine I have ever worked with)/to have done the most.

Let's not dwell into this again, it is irrelevant. Discussion was cleaned not long ago.

[Forboding Angel]

I meant to say the *most maps* (in spring of course), and z is right, the perspective changes. I never had any eyes for mods until I worked for fang on EE, that's when I got the great idea for sticking my ass into modding, once I did that the perspective from total mapping took on an entirely new light because I started seeing pros and cons here and there.

Typemaps would be fine if mods could actually control what category they fall into.

For example, TA has tank sea hover etc. Now if in evo I could use something other than tank sea and hover the typemap wouldn't affect me because it was made for BA and works in BA, for for evo it doesn't spoil the balance because my movetypes are different.

Unfortunately we don't have this distinction. However, if I were able to put a gadget in evo that would allow for on/offable typemaps in the lobby, that would be jsut golden

[Tobi]

However, if I were able to put a gadget in evo that would allow for on/offable typemaps in the lobby, that would be jsut golden

You are able to.

(At least in upcoming release.)

[Forboding Angel]

Tobi for Godhood!

Thanks

[Argh]

Actually, thank Kloot

[Google_Frog]

Is there a way to read the name of a terrain type?

[Gota]

The whole argument of mappers versus modders seems a bit strange to me.
If a mod is released to all to use in whatever way they want,and a map is released in the same manner than there is no porblem.
If Geyser is completely free than someone can make a version of Geyser without a typemap.
If a game like CA is free than a mapper can make a revision of the game to accept his mapping descicions.
However feasible one or another of the options is if somehting is cmopletely free anything is possible and there shouldnt be any arguing about any action taken.

If someone wants to release a map or game and he does not want his options to be touched can he not just state that or request devs/mappers to not use his creation if they intend on chaning it?

Spring community is "fairly" friendly,why create an arguemnt where there is none.
If I release a map and dont want a game to change it's options
I can state that and work WITH the game makers on a way to make sure my map is only played with the game like i want it to be or not at all.
Either we agree the game makers will blacklist my map or allow me to add some lua to force their game to be played on my map using the map's options.

@regret-XTA hovers are actually pretty good because of effectivness of hteir long ranged units.
With XTA's powerfull commander and his ability to stop scores of incoming close range ground units hopvers become pretty powerfull for cost on certain maps.

[Google_Frog]

Is there a way to read the name of a terrain type?

If noone answers soon Beherith's roads are going to fall to the shotgun approach.

[Pxtl]

Is there a way to read the name of a terrain type?

If noone answers soon Beherith's roads are going to fall to the shotgun approach.

I still say that averaging or taking the "closest to 1 land-type" approach would be better than simply forcing all to 1. That would preserve Behe's roads.

[Kloot]

Spring.GetGroundInfo(number x, number z) --> string "terrain-type name", ...

[Beherith]

nvm too slow