New Asteroid Map: Apophis v2

[Licho]

Its not atmospheric wind! Its solar wind!

Did you read the lua file? Solar and interstellar wind is covered in that as well.

But cabbage is not covered yet right?
If you block it it will ruin whole chicken economy though. Because it will be their only source.

[Licho]

Thing is licho, he isn't hurting ca.

Making people rage quit because windmills suddenly don't work is damaging enough. It ruins game if you build windfarms that does nothing. Making gadget that disables CA gadget is just mean and the way its done is hack.

[lurker]

Cabbage uses the same gadget?

[Licho]

No, but he will disable it too because it breaks immersion i think.
Cabbage is just plant that grows it should not be growing on asteroids.

[luckywaldo7]

Just out of morbid curiosity, how does CA handle the fact that max playable height on apophis is around 2k, while minumum is 1.5k?

Modoptions. Admittedly default settings would be overpowered.

I don't care if someone makes a map that fucks up gundam. I will just tell people not to play it and later add a gadget to immediately end the game if they play on that map.

I doubt you wouldn't be offended if a map maker as repected and accomplished as Beherith coded a map specifically to break with gundam. It hurts us especially because many of his maps are CA favorites (scorpio, xenolithic, contested canyon, etc)

You could work around this, but that would be the absolute disrespect of Beherith's wants. To me that is more of a dick move than disabling lua that ignores his settings.

If you read at all you would see that the lua was not designed to specifically override his settings, it was because of Tundra and it simply overrides wind on any map. It was not a personal attack against Beherith, although I'm afraid he took it that way. You would also realize that there is no intent to get into an override war.

[lurker]

No, but he will disable it too because it breaks immersion i think.
Cabbage is just plant that grows it should not be growing on asteroids.

Stop it.

If you read at all you would see that the lua was not designed to specifically override his settings, it was because of Tundra and it simply overrides wind on any map. It was not a personal attack against Beherith, although I'm afraid he took it that way. You would also realize that there is no intent to get into an override war.

Not quite. CA as a whole specifically decided to put wind on maps with 0/0. It's not just about maps with borky wind values.

[smoth]

I doubt you wouldn't be offended if a map maker as repected and accomplished as Beherith coded a map specifically to break with gundam.

I really wouldn't give two shits. I would feel privileged that he let his prior maps even play gundam.

It hurts us especially because many of his maps are CA favorites (scorpio, xenolithic, contested canyon, etc)

So rather than show loyalty to the guy, you assault him. Good game, winning hearts and minds there.

Look, none of this excuses the fact that you guys have full on assaulted the guy. The fact that it is his map and he put a great deal of work into it only for you lot to come here and make demands as though he is to be your slave.

Had you been more diplomatic I would have your back. Had you been more supportive or maybe tried to work with him odds are he would have found a compromise. Instead you make demands as though you are entitled to his work. It is entirely wrong and it is bullying.

[lurker]

So if Beherith's gadget was more elaborate and disabled wind generators entirely would there still be complaints? Because that's the majority of the argument I hear, that it breaks CA by making people waste resources on nonworking units.


Do keep in mind that this effect seems largely unintentional, the intent just to stop winds.

[Pxtl]

Question: doesn't the Spring/Lobby API include a way for a mod to say "does not support this map"?

Considering how Apophis breaks CA gameplay, I would think it would be appropriate here.

[zwzsg]

Question: doesn't the Spring/Lobby API include a way for a mod to say "does not support this map"?

Yes: ValidMaps.lua

[Licho]

No, but he will disable it too because it breaks immersion i think.
Cabbage is just plant that grows it should not be growing on asteroids.

Stop it.

Its legitimate issue Lurker. There is wiki entry about cabbage and slug based chicken economy and there is already slug model in CA. Such thing (growing cabbage and slugs that eat it) will also break immersion.

But of course im just pointing out to irrationality of "immersion" argument.

He should also make all planes fall down and all units escape to space on small impulses.

[luckywaldo7]

I doubt you wouldn't be offended if a map maker as repected and accomplished as Beherith coded a map specifically to break with gundam.

I really wouldn't give two shits. I would feel privileged that he let his prior maps even play gundam.

It hurts us especially because many of his maps are CA favorites (scorpio, xenolithic, contested canyon, etc)

So rather than show loyalty to the guy, you assault him. Good game, winning hearts and minds there.

Look, none of this excuses the fact that you guys have full on assaulted the guy. The fact that it is his map and he put a great deal of work into it only for you lot to come here and make demands as though he is to be your slave.

Had you been more diplomatic I would have your back. Had you been more supportive or maybe tried to work with him odds are he would have found a compromise. Instead you make demands as though you are entitled to his work. It is entirely wrong and it is bullying.

Yeah there was lack of diplomacy. But that should have been expected. After a couple confusing games, CarRepairer finally looked at the map source to find that Beherith had left CA a little note, which is posted in page 3 I think. It should be no surprise that a bunch of us got rather angry that he would tempt us with such a gorgeous map and then go out of his way to ruin it for us, and then of course some of us jumped into this thread.

And I might not contribute anything to spring but I am familiar with open source and I do hate it myself when people demand features that someone does for free. It is wrong. But that is hardly the case here when we are reacting basically the way he intended us too.

So if Beherith's gadget was more elaborate and disabled wind generators entirely would there still be complaints? Because that's the majority of the argument I hear, that it breaks CA by making people waste resources on nonworking units.


Do keep in mind that this effect seems largely unintentional, the intent just to stop winds.

Indeed, that would have made a huge difference. Or even just posting at the start of the thread or map upload that wind is disabled even in CA. He did say that "there is no wind ever" but I'll bet my left nut that he fully intended for CA players to play the map and look at the source before discovering their override is overridden.



Maybe I am wrong but I can't help but feel that Beherith's feature was really an elaborate and highly successful anti-CA troll.

[Otherside]

imo for me its the principal of it all.

There is only 1 mod that works like CA works and thats CA itself for a map maker to go out of his way (because a simple 0 wind would make it fine for any other mod) just looks like taking a stab out of a mod.

I dunno why behe hasnt blocked terraform to so that his beautiful heightmap isnt ruined.

Im trying to find behes reasoning on why he would add something that would just hurt his map and piss off people there are no positives in what Behe has done.

and thats my problem with the situation i could careless what the solution is (for me its as simple as not intentionally trying to sabotage a mod on your map especially if they contribute to most of the maps playing time)

[CarRepairer]

Timeline:

• TA makes it so maps contain wind data.
• Spring engine is born, uses above TA feature.
• Spring engine used to make all sorts of games and features that need not have anything to do with TA.
• CA implements its own wind feature as a game rule, to be determined modside, not mapside.
• Some mappers argue that CA is wrong to do this because anything called wind should be controlled by maps.

I disagree with the mappers. But the disagreement has resulted in:

• Some mappers make maps that change the mod without the transparency of letting players know. DSD Special is one, Apophis is another. (No, no no, it's not transparent.)

Broken games are a bad thing for Spring no matter how much you say "play another map" because we can't control everything. A solution where everyone is happy and the most possible maps and mods are played is more desirable.

Lobbyside suggestion: If map contains gadgets or units, place a warning to the user that this map changes the gameplay of the mod.

Note: I'm tired of addressing why it's broken. Luckywaldo explained in great detail why CA devs feel that the windmill override is broken. That's not the issue here, the issue is who gets to decide what is the final outcome.

[MidKnight]

Hm...
I just skimmed the thread, may be missing a few points.

I think I understand why Beherith wants to keep wind disabled, seeing that it improves realism and forces interesting new tactics.

However, I also see why CA would like to allow wind on the map. I actually ran into this issue a few times, trying to play some Chicken Defense games on the map, and running into resource issues.

You see, in CA, both metal and wind energy may be set to different values, effectively allowing the game host to scale a map's resource values to allow different numbers of players to play. A 1 player map with a 3x metal multiplier becomes a 3 player map.

When one wants to play chicken defense, however, all the players are usually in one small area,with little opportunity for expansion. Therefore, I opted for SpeedMetal-style resource values. Cranking the metal multiplier to 6, I momentarily forgot about the script inside apophis (I'd passingly noted it while opening the map up at an earlier point). I set the minimum wind to 30 and the maximum to 35, effectively ensuring wind generators that were as effective as fusion reactors. I then started the game, urging everyone to make lots of wind. I was unpleasantly surprised, and remembered about the gadget in Apophis. However, as I am too lazy to complain on the forums, and my players wanted a game now, I simple switched to another excellent map, and played chicken defense there. This is one occasion where allowing CA to override map wind would have been beneficial.'


From what I can see, the problem can be resolved by allowing the map to disable wind, unless the player changes the modside map values. Then, the map plays as Beherith wishes it to play, unless the person playing the map wants to play it differently.

Sound good?

[SirMaverick]

I don't care if someone makes a map that fucks up gundam. I will just tell people not to play it and later add a gadget to immediately end the game if they play on that map.

That's the start of a gadget war. Main reason I am against a "solution" like renaming CA's wind gadget.

[SirMaverick]

I like the idea that the map has influence on the economy, others don't.
Anyway, the worst part for the player is that there is no indication here that wind differs from normal CA gameplay. The map just overrides the internal mechanics and does nothing to the UI.

Rather than creating a huge fuss, why not setup up a solution?

So if Beherith's gadget was more elaborate and disabled wind generators entirely would there still be complaints? Because that's the majority of the argument I hear, that it breaks CA by making people waste resources on nonworking units.

Do keep in mind that this effect seems largely unintentional, the intent just to stop winds.

• Some mappers make maps that change the mod without the transparency of letting players know. DSD Special is one, Apophis is another. (No, no no, it's not transparent.)

New version: Apophis v2.1

• map license not broken, still no wind
• player sees changes (ingame)

download

[Pxtl]

I really think the best solution is just to use ValidMaps.Lua

This map breaks CA. So, CA shouldn't be played on it. So CA should not list it as a valid map.

[Otherside]

predictable.

[Forboding Angel]

I really think the best solution is just to use ValidMaps.Lua

This map breaks CA. So, CA shouldn't be played on it. So CA should not list it as a valid map.

Well to be honest, an invalidmaps.lua would be a good idea to add to the engine. Atm it's a whitelist, but as we all know, sometimes it's better to just have a blacklist.