Unit discussion: CA 6394

[TheThinker]

Actually panther costs 280 in test (revision 6398)

Ooops. Then I was referring to the stable version then. 280 sounds like a good cost in my opinion, although I haven't tested whether it's sound or not. Thanks for the info.

[Rafal99]

I killed mix of mumbos and bulldogs several times today using ravager spam with some levelers. I had a little advantage cost-wise probably, but not much, and the ravagers were killing mumbos very quickly because of their relatively low hp.

Edit: Checked modstats.
My spam wasn't really that effective vs mumbos (only about 75% cost damaged / cost lost) while it was very effective against bulldogs (about 180%).

[Saktoth]

I agree with some of these assessments: I never liked the mumbo because its role was so nebulous. Its fast and long ranged: skirmisher attributes, the OPPOSITE of what a riot unit does. It has no AoE, impulse, or any other attribute you'd associate with a riot unit. Its just accurate and does a lot of DPS with very few HP.

And the few HP is the key point: It dies very, very easily against defences, its rubbish as a replacement for the assault tank. What its very good at is preventing small, lighter units from closing range with you. This makes them very good in combo with artillery, but they cant march into a defensive line the way a bulldog can.

But it does make the unit fairly unique and interesting. We cant have nothing but fast RoF slow short ranged AoE units for riot. As long as a unit is well balanced, we dont need to stick too rigidly to the role definitions: A unit should be seen as a cluster of abilities which counter or are weak to other abilities.

Anyway, http://trac.caspring.org/changeset/6479

[TheThinker]

Saktoth, I think those changes should do the trick, especially the cost adjustment. 450 sounds just about right for what it could do. Reducing the range by 20 is also nice change. I can't wait to test out the newest version then!

Thanks!

[Pxtl]

Either way, there is an obvious problem - out of the two Arm vehicle facs, there are no true riot units. If you want riot support, you need to get an infantry lab up - even the tactical walkers only have a stun-riot unit, and while it is very powerful it's also a very tricky unit to use (those riot-stun-spiders have real selfpwn problems).

Core has a wide variety of units that fill the riot role nicely, while Arm keeps coming back to the Warrior.

[TheThinker]

Either way, there is an obvious problem - out of the two Arm vehicle facs, there are no true riot units. If you want riot support, you need to get an infantry lab up - even the tactical walkers only have a stun-riot unit, and while it is very powerful it's also a very tricky unit to use (those riot-stun-spiders have real selfpwn problems).

Core has a wide variety of units that fill the riot role nicely, while Arm keeps coming back to the Warrior.

I wholly agree with you. ARM doesn't have many true anti-riot units outside of the Warrior.

About the riot-stun-spiders, their selfpwn problems and their very short range make them just about useless. (why can't dedicated EMP units, in general, be immune to their own emp? ). I personally feel that they ought to be meant for offense, since their skirmisher cousins utilize their crawling ability to good effect. Perhaps they can just be large versions of their smaller cousins, the EMP spiders? The CORE has its nuclear spiders; so why can't the ARM have an EMP equivalent?

I think if there's going to be any good ARM anti-riot unit, vehicle or troop, it ought to utilize the primary strength of the ARM (EMP) in tandem with a weapon similar to a light laser. There, you have an EMP AoE (which shouldn't be very powerful), and a weapon that'll take out spam units fairly quickly once they're neutralized (while heavier units may still get through).

Either that or just slap on a stardust weapon on a vehicle and there you go!

[knorke]

Core has a wide variety of units that fill the riot role nicely, while Arm keeps coming back to the Warrior.

Either that or just slap on a stardust weapon on a vehicle and there you go!

Wouldnt that be the Mumbo?

[Pxtl]

Take a look at the Sumo - one of the most expensive and sluggish bots on the Logos side. That's what it takes to get a Logos heatray and make it mobile.

Turning the Mumbo into a similar unit with a Stardust gun on it would probably be a nice solution.

[Licho]

Regarding selfpwn - yeah emp units should not self(ally) pwn that much.

Similar problem blastwing - almost nobody can use them because they chain. Blastwing mostly kills blastwings.

[TheThinker]

Similar problem blastwing - almost nobody can use them because they chain. Blastwing mostly kills blastwings.

Good point. I use blastwings for one purpose only: to quickly set up fields of mines far across the map without my builders having to do it. So they're still useful. But as an offensive weapon, yeah, they're quite useless clustered together.

Perhaps blastwings would be more useful if they were bigger, much more expensive, with much more HP, and dealt a lot more damage. Because if you want a flying bomb, it ought to be big and tough.

As for marshmallows, I'm starting to like them. I've managed to use them to decent effect against static defenses and experimental mechs entering my base (capture time! ). For the cost, they seem to be fine.

[Saktoth]

The venom is EMP75, it takes only 25% damage from EMP. It also doesnt self-pwn, nothing does. Unless you mean friendly fire or ally damage: It may do that, but not to other emp spiders.

If you mean the emp spider should be a large tick: Thats not a good plan. Tick is even harder to use.

[Otherside]

EMP wall > riot

but i generally think EMP is overpowered so...

[luckywaldo7]

EMP wall > riot

but i generally think EMP is overpowered so...

Actually now that emp is based solely on the max health of the unit instead of dynamically on its current health, emp is rather underpowered.

[Otherside]

thank god for that now if EMP time wasnt increased so drastically with damage so that you get that retarded stunlock of doom that would be awesome.

[Saktoth]

thank god for that now if EMP time wasnt increased so drastically with damage so that you get that retarded stunlock of doom that would be awesome.

^ hasnt been playing the game.

[Otherside]

thank god for that now if EMP time wasnt increased so drastically with damage so that you get that retarded stunlock of doom that would be awesome.

^ hasnt been playing the game.

if CA site wasnt down all the time :] and spring downloader worked like it used to...

[Pxtl]

Yup. Zeuses ain't what they used to be.

[Licho]

thank god for that now if EMP time wasnt increased so drastically with damage so that you get that retarded stunlock of doom that would be awesome.

^ hasnt been playing the game.

if CA site wasnt down all the time :] and spring downloader worked like it used to...

SD only works if site is not down

[Otherside]

like 2-3 months back i tried to get CA downloaded because my SD was error spamming (site was up) i asked in channel for help no one did so couldnt play CA

[Licho]

It was when old SD system was turned off after server reinstall.