Formation widget

[Gota]

Spring has a very powerful tool,the custom formations widget.
The problem is that this tool is most effective at certain unit sizes and when several units are mixed in the group,using the widget can sometimes do more damage than good.
It would be nice if there was a tool,just or more powerful as the custom formations widget that allowed control over big unit amounts and in situations when several unit types are in the same group of units.

I want to discuss an initial design.
I think the widget itself will need to be an "infrastructure" that allows game makers to,more or less,easily customize the way formations work in their game since different games have different units and unit behaviours.

The problematic issues,I can identify,with formations.
#1
How do you decide the size of the formation in all directions.
#2
In which order do you line up the different unit types in the formation.
#3
How to control a Group's behavior when it meets the enemy and how much self control should the group have.
#4
how can you make sure its easy,in a hectic game,to add or remove units from different groups or direct units to groups from certain labs/factories without it all becoming cumbersome and require much clicking.

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#1

The problem is probably more technical.

#2:
I think the widget should or,naturally will,allow game makers to decide what are the parameters/unit tags that will determine the order in which different unit categories will be sorted,by default,when the group is formed(For example,the weapon range of the different unit types) but the player should also be able to cycle through different builds.How can this be made convenient? .

#3:
This is a more tricky question.
I think that a group needs to be looked at as a unit.
When you form a group it should be as if you are creating a basic unit and creating its "fbi".
After a group is formed it can be selected by a single click on the mouse like the selection of a unit and all the regular orders should be available to the group(patrol,fight and the rest).

One "fbi tag" can be the amount of different unit categories the group will identify.
in every category you might actually have several types of units that will be treated the same by the group AI.
Yet another can be the spacing the widget will attempt to give units in the group(maybe control this with "[" and "]"?.

But how do you control the behavior of the
different unit categories inside the group?

This is a bit hard since,IMO,the idea is to make it as simple as possible while give the player as much control as possible over different elements in the group and even single units(if your group is attacking based on some characteristics you set for it,it would be a big advantage if you could also fine tune its behavior my microing different units in the group in the heat of battle).

If a group is selected as a single unit,to ease selection in the confusion of battle or proximity of other units/groups near by,than how do you allow the player to also easily select different unit categories and even single units inside your group if he suddenly wants to micro them personally?
This needs some creative solution like gestures or hotkeys or group icons or some new idea that hasn't been done yet that will be convenient.

Another part is the behavior of different unit categories in your group when they engage enemy units.
each category can have a few basic "behavior tags"
that the player assigns when forming the group.
An example with BA units.
You have a group that has 3 unit categories,front line assault that are Flash and PW,support that are Janus and Stumpy and artillery at the back which is filled by the Shellshocker.
your unit is moving forward when it meets an enemy force.
Should the front line engage right away or stand and let the artillery fire until the enemy attacks back?
There needs to be a way to quickly tell different categories in your group how to behave(roughly).
(if you have an artillery line at the front you need to be able to,at a certain moment to tell other parts to engage in combat,easily,and rush towards the enemy,by selecting a units category in your group with one click and giving it an engage order.
Solutions?

#4:
My thoughts:
When you have an "official"(an assigned group you now select like it was a single unit)group
You are able to select a unit/several units,hold the left mouse button on them and move the cursor over the official group you have formed.
This will add the single unit/group of units into that official group and they will now be a part of it(should they walk to it by themselves or only when the formal grou pis assigned some order?).
A lab can be commanded to guard an "official" group sending all newly built units and assign them into the group.

detachment of certain units or whole unit categories out of a group can be done by a UI key called "detach" at the worst case scenario(cause it does resemble the way you attach units to the group)or maybe by selecting a unit inside the group(as written above how this will be done in a convenient manner needs to be discussed and invented) clicking the left mouse button on it,holding it and dragging the cursor far away for the group,than letting it go,which will detach the unit from the group.

The same thing(selecting and dragging) can be done with immediately transferring units or entire unit categories from one group to the other.
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I probably missed other important issues and problems that might arise from a formation system and there are many question marks.
I would really want to hear what people think about a formation system,what reservations,or ideas,do they have to/about what I described.

Plz do not Troll or write offtopic or just kid around cause it is important that all ideas/criticisms/questions are ordered to maintain coherency in the discussion.

Sorry for the long wall and for any cumbersome and unnecessarily complicated descriptions.Also,if I sound arrogant or too sure of what im offering or too "focused" on how different parts should work,this was not my intention,quite the opposite.
I just wanted to give some default ideas to try and frame the problem,as i see it,of a formation system and invite others to discuss it.

[Tribulex]

sounds good, start coding.

also wrong forum lol

[JohannesH]

That just sounds awfully messy to use. Just have good mechanics with grouping units and you will beat anyone using this unless its done ridiculously well.

[Tribulex]

Yan doesnt want to micro actually. I dont blame him i write code to do my microing, but he doesnt code....

[zerver]

I agree the current sorting is a problem. You tend to get all units of one type on one side, which makes the troops vulnerable. Something simpler that would be a big improvement is to make the order pseudo-random. Just make sure the order does not change when units are added or removed.

[Gota]

That just sounds awfully messy to use. Just have good mechanics with grouping units and you will beat anyone using this unless its done ridiculously well.

Well i was kinda thinking about big unit numbers and many unit types...something like nota/Supcom.
Or for games similar to total war.
And yes I gave it a bit of thought but its hard to make it convenient.
I do think its possible with some creative thinking.

By the way,grouping techniques are extremely messy IMO.
Especially when you have units constantly being made or killed and you need to constantly restructure your groups and lead new troops to where your main groups are all the time.

[Argh]

Meh. I think the easiest way to get what Gota wants is staring us in the face.

On a user giving a move order to a group of Units with the "square" formation:

Sort the Units according to whatever priorities you think are important, simplest would be distance. Put them into lists.

You have the numbers to form a square or rectangular grid of the Units, so take the ordered lists and issue SimpleFormations commands to each subset, to give them the most efficient path. For a square, it would take the alignment from the perpendicular angle of the line between the start-point defined by the user and the end-point, and basically just draw several perpendicular lines.

For moves whose length is greater than X, to keep them in square formations, move them to a point at Y along the line, Wait a few seconds to let stragglers catch up, then ctrl-move, to keep them roughly in formation.

Obviously this would all work a lot better with units that all have identical speeds.

Can't code this one- I'm not good at sorting algorithms. But I figured that maybe somebody might find this an attractive idea.

[Gota]

Well for games with a small amount of different unit types,like say KP,maybe the following can make the experience of playing with huge amounts of units more enjoyable:
You start playing.
You have several "markers".
one to select danger zones.
one marker per unit type to show the zones where you want each type of your forces to concentrate and position itself.
And another marker to erase marking of any kind.
The marker would work much like area reclaim but will also allow to draw a zone with a brush.
Brush size can be auto determined based on the map's size or the player could change it's sizes if a convenient and fast enough method can be found to do that.

This way you wont have to manually control each and every KP geo spot with a factory(although you will still be able to if need be)...your units will just spread around in the areas youv assigned and avoid danger zones.

A marking system can also be good to draw front lines.
For example in s44.
Instead of dragging a huge line with a custom formation you can just draw the front line and units will try to equally disperse on it.

[Wartender]

how about editing the command that makes units move to one place while retaining their formation (ctrl+move) so that the units all move at the same speed (being the speed of the slowest units in the group) and have them all stop when one stops (i.e. if given a fight command and an enemy is encountered)

this way you could organize your group with regular custom formations, then send it out.

[Tribulex]

how about editing the command that makes units move to one place while retaining their formation (ctrl+move) so that the units all move at the same speed (being the speed of the slowest units in the group) and have them all stop when one stops (i.e. if given a fight command and an enemy is encountered)

this way you could organize your group with regular custom formations, then send it out.

try ctrl + click