Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME? - Page 3

Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.

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zwzsg
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by zwzsg »

The half sun icon didn't bother me much, however I used ResHack to change the splashscreen of the dead comm. Nowadays TASClient can be customised much more easily.
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smoth
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by smoth »

problem with tasclient for me is that satirik likes to troll me and frankly he has been known to put code bombs in to flip off people he doesn't like :\.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by CarRepairer »

Forboding Angel wrote:Doesn't redistributing under a different name violate the license?
Isn't Tasclient under GPL? Springlobby is. I don't think altering a titlebar is a violation of that, but I'm not too knowledgeable on the subject.
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AF
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by AF »

smoth wrote:problem with tasclient for me is that satirik likes to troll me and frankly he has been known to put code bombs in to flip off people he doesn't like :\.
Considering recent history, I approve greatly of certain victims! Its about the one defining attribute of Satirik that I thoroughly enjoy, even though its morally detestable. I haven't run tasclient in quite a while and dont think I shall chance it.

When I started the ball rolling by actively speaking about the mods vs games terminology issue, I knew it would be for the best and was puzzled why nobody had spoke up about it before, especially considering people complaining about the problems of spring. Its astonishing to see how far the ball has rolled though, to know that one day, when its all died down, a thread will spontaneously appear to push everyone back in the direction of the correct terminology.

To explain more of the reasoning I present these blogposts:

Image
Leaky bucket Syndrome
Spring wants more players! It wants to expand! Conquer the RTS genre! Hooray! Wahooo! .. erm . Where are all the users?

Image
Content Maladies
Expand spring expand EXPAND!!! In to the cosmos of the tinternetz, clog up those tubes with weasels, no zakus, no armored assault shells, no storm troopers yes storm troopers! On delta siege dry! Now wouldnÔÇÖt that be wonderful? Its hardly appropriate but its nothing compared to what is actually happening.


And most fitting of all:

The Spring Delusion Part I

I set out in those blog posts many points, and almost all of them apply to present day spring, even though more than 2 entire years have passed.
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Argh
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by Argh »

Liking the blog background.

Meh. After 3+ pages of typing, I'll keep it short. This is my analysis:

1. The bucket's fundamentally flawed. The bucket was designed by people who are obsessed about online player numbers, and has no real relationship game development in the commercial sense, where they don't get to do stuff so bass-ackward. Try setting up Spring from scratch, and try... just try... to imagine you're a clueless end-user, you don't want to play online (vast majority of RTS players never do) and you're used to commercial games that get you right into playing immediately.

Now, walk through all the steps before that end-user is playing a game by themselves. When you're done counting the steps, you will see what I mean. It's a lot of steps, and they aren't intuitive or guided. It's not rocket science- however, the fixes are engineering projects.

2. The rest of it's all "duh" material at this point. We know that recycling Lobby players isn't a marketing strategy, that we won't get players around here unless we're on the front page and catch them at the beginning, etc. Not new news.

I've already said what I think about the screwups with marketing. You guys got your nice pretty front page with your rules and layers of bureaucracy, your lack of URLs, etc.- and it is mediocre, under-developed, and does not serve as an information point about what's going on with projects developed on the engine, so it doesn't really drive excitement about the engine itself. Which is exactly what I said would happen. I don't care about the blame for that- we know who argued what, etc., it's done. But the facts speak for themselves.
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AF
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by AF »

One should take note of the pure front page banner, you pushed a lot for the false points I debunked in my blog post, and it took a random forum user to finally put a single image on the games page.

Most of your progress in relation to this is down to the following:
  • The P.U.R.E installer
  • The website I built you
  • Establishing yourself on Impulse/Stardock
  • That P.U.R.E actually has a logo (still can't believe there are projects that don't have a logo here)
Eitherway most of those points are still valid and hold true, showing no progress being made in many areas in the last 2 years despite a consensus that the points where right and many had already arrived at those conclusions.

Or at least if the person ahd actually read the blogposts that is...

The sad part is that blatant lies and mistruths are still generally held as common knowledge by the members of this community.

Here is an immediate list of actions that should be taken else the people responsible be condemned for negligence:
  • Addition of a games folder and defaulting archive mover to use it instead of mods
  • A ban on TA content on the websites banners screenshots and titles. This content is illegal and we should not advertise our illegitimacy, let them do that on their own sites to their own communities.
  • A TA:Spring website to take the responsibility of managing springs TA in 3D image, advertisement, and distribution There's a huge audience for this and its being bamboozled and confused by the spring engine terminology and semantics. Make a mini site, upload an installer with BA and delta siege bundled and be done with it! Who cares about forums either? Just use that as the front page to the world wide web and redirect here if its too much effort!
  • Rename mods to games in the lobbies.
    Its ridiculous that tasclient and springlobby still call them mods and dont even attempt to mention games, is it really that ahrd to rename a single word? Even AFLobby/Battlehub managed it and its a dead project!!!
  • Rename mods to games on JJs filesite.
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wilbefast
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by wilbefast »

It's a real grey area, far above and beyond Spring. For example, many developers, both commercial and independent, pick the Unreal or Source engines to make their games. The question is, are they "games" *proper* or just "modifications"?
  • Examples of non-Epic "games" which used Epic's "Unreal" engine
    • Bioshock
    • Mass Effect
    • Splinter Cell
  • Examples of non-Valve "games" which used Valve's "Source" engine
    • The Ship
    • Vampires Bloodlines - The Masquerade
    • Zeno Clash
  • Examples of "Source" engine "mods"
    • Zombie Panic! Source
    • Flipside
    • Dystopia
  • Examples of free "games" using custom engines
    • Warsow
    • Tremulous
    • Nexuiz
  • Examples of "mods" that became games
    • Natural Selection (Half Life) -> Natural Selection 2 (Custom)
    • Counter Strike (Half Life) -> Counter Strike: Source (Source)
    • Team Fortress (Quake) -> Team Fortress 2 (Source)

edit: I am aware that The Ship was also originally a mod. Narbacular Drop used a custom-built engine so was never a mod: either way most people have only ever heard of Portal.

Quality isn't really an indication because some of the so-called "mods" are better than the "games" built with the same engine. Same thing when it comes to quantity: people still talk about "total conversion mods" rather than "games" when it comes to independent games, and Unknown World (Natural Selection) had to build their own game engine before they were allowed to call their game a "game".
This list would seem to indicate is that your "mod" becomes a "game" the day you start trying to sell it: what's the difference between Counter Strike and Counter Strike: Source? One is commercial, the other is freeware. Of course, this rule is broken when the "game" in question uses a custom-built engine - in this case it's a "game", not a "mod".

All told I think that the true indication is not the game itself, but the engine it is built on. You have to ask yourself - "is the engine made just for this game, is it a general-use game engine like Source or Unreal, or is it made for a different game?"
So whether or not the content packs people make for Spring are "mods" or "games" depends heavily on whether Spring is made to be a general-use RTS-engine or whether it's made to be a platform for TA. I can't answer this question - I'm too new - but I can tell you that to the outside world Spring is still "TA Spring", and a quick look at the lobby game-list doesn't exactly defy this assumption.


William
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smoth
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by smoth »

wilbefast wrote:Quality isn't really an indication because some of the so-called "mods" are better than the "games" built with the same engine.
The average player does not see it this way.
wilbefast wrote:This list would seem to indicate is that your "mod" becomes a "game" the day you start trying to sell it: what's the difference between Counter Strike and Counter Strike: Source? One is commercial, the other is freeware. Of course, this rule is broken when the "game" in question uses a custom-built engine - in this case it's a "game", not a "mod".
This speaks volumes about your ignorance...

Counter strike required the GAME half life to run.
CS Source, was it's own title not requiring half life.
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wilbefast
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by wilbefast »

smoth wrote:Counter strike required the GAME half life to run.
CS Source, was it's own title not requiring half life.
I knew that :P

Yeah... um... Somehow I forgot about that small technicality. I kid you not, I actually forgot. Of course, that is, if anything, more embarrassing. Right so I didn't forget, I actually am just completely ignorant. That's the way I'm going to play it.

The question is, will my argument now fall down like the proverbial house of cards? Yes... yes, I think it will. Thanks a lot smoth :x do you have any idea how long I spent making all those lists with all the dot-points and italics, boldification and underlining? Do you even care? Do you delight in human misery? Are you actually Satan or just one of his devil cronies?

Looks like a need a new argument :| I'm all out of ideas though. I'll be back...
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smoth
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by smoth »

wilbefast wrote: Do you even care? Do you delight in human misery?
YES!
wilbefast wrote: Are you actually Satan or just one of his devil cronies?
HOW DID YOU KNOW! I THOUGHT FOR sure I WASN"T WEarinG my bADGe!
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PTSnoop
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by PTSnoop »

Open Source games have blurred the lines between games and mods a fair bit. Suppose I were to take (for example) the open-source and actually very good FPS Tremulous, tweak around a bunch of models, add different weapons and buildings, and just generally mess around with the source code, then distribute it freely as a separate standalone program under the terms of the GPL, would that be a game, a mod, a thing, or what?

Arguably, it does require the game files for Tremulous, they've just been repackaged. But have they been changed around sufficiently to properly count as a "game"? How much of the core game would I have to change? Suppose all I'd done was rebalancing a few numbers for weapons; that wouldn't count as a different game, would it?

And what if I took the same program and packaged the exact same files as a mod for Tremulous (there's an option on the main menu for mods)? Is there really a difference? Where is the line here?

Yes, I realise I've just asked a bunch of questions instead of giving any answers. But meh.

My personal opinion: Yep, spring "modules" that don't need OTA content are definitely games rather than mods. Hence, the SpringLobby and TASClient devs really should fix their option labels. Also, +1 for the renaming of Springlobby and SpringSettings to Multiplayer Lobby and Graphics Settings, and the "games" folder instead of (or as well as) "mods".
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BrainDamage
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by BrainDamage »

i can rename all mods in SL relatively easily, but wouldn't users still (or even more ) get confused if they'd have to park those "games" in a folder called mods?
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zwzsg
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by zwzsg »

All this discussion is useless.

Whether the folder "game content" is dropped is named "games" or "mods" isn't what make or break a "games" or "mods" popularity. Self-proclaimed "games" dev should first focus on building proper complete installer and lobby configuration, instead of asking the users to download spring there, download maps there, download "game" or "mod" there, download AI there, add some widgets from that place, and manually plugging the bricks together. If "games" came with proper installer, anyway the end user woudn't even see the name of the "mods" folder. And it would make the "game" look more professional, and more worthy of being called "game" instead of "mod". Last time I installed Tremulous or Warsow, I didn't have unzip some weird files into some subfolder of my Quake engine, and I didn't have to install the Quake engine separatly. I just googled "Tremulous" or "Warsow", looked for the "files" or "download" tab, clicked "Windows, full", then ran the downloaded installer, and clicked "next" a few times. I mean, just try it. Then try the same with "Gundam RTS", putting yourself into the shoes of someone who doesn't know about Spring. And compare.
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Pxtl
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by Pxtl »

wilbefast

All three of those examples you listed for OSS games were forks from Quake. May as well call them Quake mods.
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smoth
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by smoth »

zwzsg wrote:All this discussion is useless.

Whether the folder "game content" is dropped is named "games" or "mods" isn't what make or break a "games" or "mods" popularity.
That isn't the argument. Stop bringing the popularity argument to the table. It is infuriating.

My point of bringing up the perceived worth of something has less to do with popularity and more to do with people giving something a try.

The argument is that the term mod is misleading and confusing for new players. The same players who have a hard time understanding how to make the spring thingie work.
zwzsg wrote:Self-proclaimed "games" dev should first focus on building proper complete installer and lobby configuration, instead of asking the users to download spring there, download maps there, download "game" or "mod" there, download AI there, add some widgets from that place, and manually plugging the bricks together.
If this is a response to me, I am going to attack this point.

Complete installer would force a spring version.

They download the maps and "mod" mod in one file.

There is no ai that supports gundam

Any widgets needed to play gundam are included.

So like I say on the moddb profile, you need X version of gundam and the latest engine build. Pretty easy.

as far as lobby configuration, what TASClient? the dev of that project has a beef with me and has been known to put code bombs in his shit when he doesn't like something.

Springlobby is not configurable like tasclient...


zwzsg wrote: If "games" came with proper installer, anyway the end user woudn't even see the name of the "mods" folder.
And the user would be stuck with that version of spring.
zwzsg wrote: And it would make the "game" look more professional, and more worthy of being called "game" instead of "mod".
This is a freeware project... not a professional project. Professional appearance is irrelevant.
zwzsg wrote:Last time I installed Tremulous or Warsow, I didn't have unzip some weird files into some subfolder of my Quake engine, and I didn't have to install the Quake engine separatly. I just googled "Tremulous" or "Warsow", looked for the "files" or "download" tab, clicked "Windows, full", then ran the downloaded installer, and clicked "next" a few times. I mean, just try it.
Quake doesn't have updates weekly and when it did, the players playing said mods didn't have to update to play online.

zwzsg wrote:Then try the same with "Gundam RTS", putting yourself into the shoes of someone who doesn't know about Spring. And compare.
I have... it is pretty easy, install spring, double click the files in the gundam zip...

however, after that getting online and all are measurably harder. Hosting is even more impossible as most of the time I am required to host. Feel free to keep blaming me for the lack of gundam games on the server, I'll happily take the blame when players can readily host.
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Argh
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by Argh »

I agree with zxswg on his points.



However, there are other parts of the nightmare. If you distribute complete installers as a unified product, then it's instantly bitrotting vs. current code, and may not be used with the Lobby. The fact that the engine != Lobby, like most games, and is not auto-updated, like most games... is a fairly serious issue. Not that I am advocating a new Lobby... it's too late for that, and there have been a lot of tangible benefits to competition. An auto-updater, though, would be a nice thing.

Bigger problem though, as I (and zxswg and the S'44 crew, I presume) ran into, is that there are all of these other major parts missing- single-player support is basically a wasteland, there is no explicit support for Missions and Campaigns, the front end, while considerably improved, is not really anything like a professional game would support, etc.

And without a Mission Builder that is maintained, that area is now going fallow very quickly. I wish I had time to build an all-Lua one, but I just don't atm.

All of these things are major issues.


One should take note of the pure front page banner, you pushed a lot for the false points I debunked in my blog post, and it took a random forum user to finally put a single image on the games page.
I didn't upload any banners for P.U.R.E. onto the Spring website, nor would I authorize one at this time, so I guess I need to investigate that.

The topbar here in the rotator (if that's what you're talking about) has never been an issue for me, but it's certainly not branded or anything like marketing- it doesn't mention the game title, URL, or anything else. And, just for people who are new to here, it was made by Roflcopter when he introduced the new website design- it would have been churlish to ask for it to be removed. If anybody bought P.U.R.E. because of that image, I would be amazed, tbh- I'll bet that 99.99% of first-time Forum users have no idea what that image is about.

The "games page" is cool, I am honored that my project is mentioned there and that somebody was kind enough to inform me that it existed so that I could help edit it a bit, but it doesn't drive significant traffic to my website.

I agreed with most of what you had to say in the blog posts, other than your findings about the "leaky bucket". And I listed my objections in detail- you got a lot of your points right, but basically weren't focusing on the major point where things remain FUBAR.

Spring's a RTS engine, most RTS players don't play online, why is the vast majority of UI engineering spent on this, when it really should be a core focus? The devs typically say, "it's all we play", to which I say, "that's because you've made it so hard to make and deploy good single-player stuff that you would enjoy". It's chicken and egg, basically.

I've been tempted to give the Devs free full copies of P.U.R.E. to show them what is possible, when 1.3 is done. Even as admittedly-crude as it is in places, vs. multi-million-dollar AAA titles like C&C, it's what Spring should be emphasizing, in terms of delivering the "best RTS ever", etc. But tbh, I am afraid that if I bother, they simply won't play it, so it won't have much of an impact or be a useful talking point.
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wilbefast
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by wilbefast »

PTSnoop wrote:Open Source games have blurred the lines between games and mods a fair bit. Suppose I were to take (for example) the open-source and actually very good FPS Tremulous, tweak around a bunch of models, add different weapons and buildings, and just generally mess around with the source code, then distribute it freely as a separate standalone program under the terms of the GPL, would that be a game, a mod, a thing, or what?

Arguably, it does require the game files for Tremulous, they've just been repackaged. But have they been changed around sufficiently to properly count as a "game"? How much of the core game would I have to change? Suppose all I'd done was rebalancing a few numbers for weapons; that wouldn't count as a different game, would it?

And what if I took the same program and packaged the exact same files as a mod for Tremulous (there's an option on the main menu for mods)? Is there really a difference? Where is the line here?
Good point, that's what I meant by 'grey area'.

You normally mod a game though, and what game are you modding when you mod Spring? If you're working on a *A in which case I suppose you're modding TA but if not - well, there isn't really a "default" game for Spring...

I suppose zwzsg is right in the end: whether it's a game or a mod really depends on whether you install into onto something that's already there, or whether it's stand-alone.
But if it's just a matter of repackaging the same content in a different way, why should that make such a difference?

edit: Argh - I'd buy P.U.R.E if it was on Linux. That's not a loaded statement btw - I'm not saying "port it! port it! port it!". I'm just saying literally that I would buy it if it was on Linux, because I don't use Windows :P
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AF
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by AF »

The devs arent the ones pushing UI development, and leaky bucket wasnt intended as a blog post targeted at all of springs problems, else Id have had a very long blog post nobody would have read, and no room for new blog posts ( or even part 2 ).

Smoth your arguments about professionalism are subjective. You may not need to bother with it at the moment, its a big problem for you. But it IS a big problem for them.

We can use autoupdaters and patches for engine updates, and tbh we should be running our own lobby servers anyway to get around the primary mod disaster. Until lobbies can be bundled with installers with customized filters and branding this is how it'll have to be.
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smoth
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by smoth »

AF wrote:Smoth your arguments about professionalism are subjective. You may not need to bother with it at the moment, its a big problem for you. But it IS a big problem for them.
How so? also the last sentence, I don't follow.
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wilbefast
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Re: Because people are starting this again.. why is it a GAME?

Post by wilbefast »

Btw:
Argh wrote:Bigger problem though, as I (and zxswg and the S'44 crew, I presume) ran into, is that there are all of these other major parts missing- single-player support is basically a wasteland, there is no explicit support for Missions and Campaigns, the front end, while considerably improved, is not really anything like a professional game would support, etc.
+1.

Single-player campaigns are good for teaching people how to play the game - some people may just get frustrated if they're not eased into it.
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