http://fileuniverse.com/?p=listing&ID=121
Go there and start adding comments. Let no bad map go unrated. You can't put stars on maps, but at least you can add comments. Just create a FU account and log in and all of a sudden a new world of bitching is open to you.
Hell, maybe I should repost this in the general forum?
Keepers make bases invincible
Moderator: Moderators
That's not true,it's like impossible to stop a deflector with shells.. even if the opponents is lacking energy.Caydr wrote:You might also try overwhelming your opponent's bertha shield by attacking it with your best mobile artillery. Remember, for every single shell it is repelling, that is 4,000 energy per tick being drained. Meanwhile your bertha can fire with impunity.
It is entirely possible to overwelm a reflector. Heck, it's very easy even. I managed to bust one that was backed by 20 advanced fusion reactors with just a few units that spew bullets like popcorn. Each and every bit of plasma puts on the drain on the energy-supply. You can't bust it with bertha's, because they fire too slow. Neither with vulcans, because they hit the entire map, and hit the repulser area only once in a while. But as soon as you get about 15 plasma-balls in there at the same time, it's bye bye very soon. And you know the fun part?
Put the drain on it's repulsers, and the annihilators stay silent. Byebye base, here come the krogs.
Oh, and don't fire at the repulsor. Of course that won't work, because annihilators are in the way. But fire just in it's range, when you are outside viewing-range. It repulses anything coming it's way, not just what's going to hit it. Who cares that you just hit rocks and squirels, just drain his energy.
Put the drain on it's repulsers, and the annihilators stay silent. Byebye base, here come the krogs.
Oh, and don't fire at the repulsor. Of course that won't work, because annihilators are in the way. But fire just in it's range, when you are outside viewing-range. It repulses anything coming it's way, not just what's going to hit it. Who cares that you just hit rocks and squirels, just drain his energy.
Well, I have been doing some serious testing (still wiping the sweat off my poor computer), and my previous post might need some adjusting.
Here's what I did:
I played against empty AI, so the situation was lab-like, with no counterattacks.
First, I built eachothers economy. I supplied myself with ample metal and energy (+700 and +50k), and gave the computer another +80k energy, by underwater fusion plants and a batch of advanced fusion reactors. Then I lined up 30 annihilators, added 30 pop-up cannons in front of it, backed all the annihilators by repair-towers, added 2 radards, and protected the lot of them by 3 repulsers.
I gave my own base 4 bertha's, 2 vulcan's, and I had a mobile lrpc.
Now for the testing :)
Getting something in range proved mighty difficult, because the range of the annihilator outclasses anything in arm-weaponry available. The vanguard was the best I could get, without moving to lrpcs. Everything else was wiped off the map in an instant, by a barrage of bombs and blue rays. So, for the heavy stuff, I send 7 orcones (build in 30 seconds each, heh) to the line, but that resulted in 7 craters and no enemy casualties. There were hits, but not enough.
I set my artillery to work. The vulcans bombed away, supported by bertha's and my mobile lrpc. No effect, every shell was repulsed. Now to check the energy drain, so I send in another 5 orcones. They were annihilated in an instant. So, I tried again. All artillery, 5 orcones, 5 bantha's and 50 bombers in an all-out assault. As soon as the bots came in range, I issued the bombers to attack. They weren't shot down, because there was no anti-air, but I wanted to test the drain. The skies lighted up brightly red as all of them unleased their bombs. My artillery stopped firing, because of all my aircraft, so that drain was missing. But, same result, even though I drained the crap out of him (man, that was a pretty sight, even at 2fps), all orcones and bantha's were annihilated, and my total kills resulted in most cannons (which were in front of the annihilators), and 3 annihilators. Therefore I deem such an assault impossible, because with plenty of flakkers and missile-towers, the bombers wouldn't even work, and anything without wings is simply a walking target.
So, please forget my previous statement, and I invite anyone for some serious testing on this issue. Oh, I used AA of course.
Here's what I did:
I played against empty AI, so the situation was lab-like, with no counterattacks.
First, I built eachothers economy. I supplied myself with ample metal and energy (+700 and +50k), and gave the computer another +80k energy, by underwater fusion plants and a batch of advanced fusion reactors. Then I lined up 30 annihilators, added 30 pop-up cannons in front of it, backed all the annihilators by repair-towers, added 2 radards, and protected the lot of them by 3 repulsers.
I gave my own base 4 bertha's, 2 vulcan's, and I had a mobile lrpc.
Now for the testing :)
Getting something in range proved mighty difficult, because the range of the annihilator outclasses anything in arm-weaponry available. The vanguard was the best I could get, without moving to lrpcs. Everything else was wiped off the map in an instant, by a barrage of bombs and blue rays. So, for the heavy stuff, I send 7 orcones (build in 30 seconds each, heh) to the line, but that resulted in 7 craters and no enemy casualties. There were hits, but not enough.
I set my artillery to work. The vulcans bombed away, supported by bertha's and my mobile lrpc. No effect, every shell was repulsed. Now to check the energy drain, so I send in another 5 orcones. They were annihilated in an instant. So, I tried again. All artillery, 5 orcones, 5 bantha's and 50 bombers in an all-out assault. As soon as the bots came in range, I issued the bombers to attack. They weren't shot down, because there was no anti-air, but I wanted to test the drain. The skies lighted up brightly red as all of them unleased their bombs. My artillery stopped firing, because of all my aircraft, so that drain was missing. But, same result, even though I drained the crap out of him (man, that was a pretty sight, even at 2fps), all orcones and bantha's were annihilated, and my total kills resulted in most cannons (which were in front of the annihilators), and 3 annihilators. Therefore I deem such an assault impossible, because with plenty of flakkers and missile-towers, the bombers wouldn't even work, and anything without wings is simply a walking target.
So, please forget my previous statement, and I invite anyone for some serious testing on this issue. Oh, I used AA of course.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
My answer
Well, the gizmo can be overwhelmed by ludicrous amounts of small arms fire, but with annihilators you'll never get those small arms in range anyways. Stealth units can be handled with the liberal use of dragons' eyes in the kill field. Nuke defense is obviously anti-nukes. Air defense is a nice combo of screamers, andti-bombers and flakkers.
IMHO, the best answer to the "uncrackable defense" would be to add a single, weak, crappy unit that has the sole distinction of having an undefendable weapon. Just a starburst missile launcher with 2000 range - an extra-long-ranged MERL. That's it. Then, you liberally sprinkle them outside of his firing range and start bombarding him to death. The only way for him to return fire would be (a) LRPCs or (b) move out the mobile units.
BTW, has anybody tried dealing with this problem in a naval map? Is there any solution to the mess when the keeper/annihilator/screamer/flakker/anti-nuke invincible combo is on a shoreline?
The problem, of course, is that there's no reason not to build more fusion plants. Annihilators and keepers will eat your energy, but if you've already got a half dozen megafusion plants in place, there's no reason not to add a dozen more - it just takes an army of nanotowers and mohomakers.
The basic probelm with the rock-paper-scissors here is that the defender can play all RPS at the same time, so at the end it comes down to a numbers game, where the defender will always have an advantage thanks to (a) the inherent cheapness of static units, and (b) the advanced range of defensive units - the Annihilator is the single longest ranged non-LRPC in the game.
IMHO, the best answer to the "uncrackable defense" would be to add a single, weak, crappy unit that has the sole distinction of having an undefendable weapon. Just a starburst missile launcher with 2000 range - an extra-long-ranged MERL. That's it. Then, you liberally sprinkle them outside of his firing range and start bombarding him to death. The only way for him to return fire would be (a) LRPCs or (b) move out the mobile units.
BTW, has anybody tried dealing with this problem in a naval map? Is there any solution to the mess when the keeper/annihilator/screamer/flakker/anti-nuke invincible combo is on a shoreline?
The problem, of course, is that there's no reason not to build more fusion plants. Annihilators and keepers will eat your energy, but if you've already got a half dozen megafusion plants in place, there's no reason not to add a dozen more - it just takes an army of nanotowers and mohomakers.
The basic probelm with the rock-paper-scissors here is that the defender can play all RPS at the same time, so at the end it comes down to a numbers game, where the defender will always have an advantage thanks to (a) the inherent cheapness of static units, and (b) the advanced range of defensive units - the Annihilator is the single longest ranged non-LRPC in the game.
I agree that the gameplay shouldn't only focus on stupid metal maps - but stupid metal maps do happen. In normal OTA they worked fine - you just crushed the player with Krogs, nukes, or BBs. It was just a game of who could throw together a game-ending strike first. That option is now closed - there are no game-ending strikes. Krogs and bombers can be overwhelmed, keepers stop berthas, and anti-nukes work well. Metal maps are becoming unending with these top-end defenses - in TA they were stupid, but they worked because there was still a way to destroy the opponent.
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Archangel of Death
- Posts: 854
- Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 18:15
Hmm, a bunch of small junk - of course that isn't getting far without at least some radar jamming. A group of Orcones - um, Anni's are meant to be anti big unit and your walking a hand full of them into 30 Anni's. As for that last assualt, I wish you had put in .cheat and .team1 to see how his economy was doing, since I don't know the drain that bombers put on them.AlienDNA wrote:Well, I have been doing some serious testing (still wiping the sweat off my poor computer), and my previous post might need some adjusting.
Here's what I did:
I played against empty AI, so the situation was lab-like, with no counterattacks.
First, I built eachothers economy. I supplied myself with ample metal and energy (+700 and +50k), and gave the computer another +80k energy, by underwater fusion plants and a batch of advanced fusion reactors. Then I lined up 30 annihilators, added 30 pop-up cannons in front of it, backed all the annihilators by repair-towers, added 2 radards, and protected the lot of them by 3 repulsers.
I gave my own base 4 bertha's, 2 vulcan's, and I had a mobile lrpc.
Now for the testing :)
Getting something in range proved mighty difficult, because the range of the annihilator outclasses anything in arm-weaponry available. The vanguard was the best I could get, without moving to lrpcs. Everything else was wiped off the map in an instant, by a barrage of bombs and blue rays. So, for the heavy stuff, I send 7 orcones (build in 30 seconds each, heh) to the line, but that resulted in 7 craters and no enemy casualties. There were hits, but not enough.
I set my artillery to work. The vulcans bombed away, supported by bertha's and my mobile lrpc. No effect, every shell was repulsed. Now to check the energy drain, so I send in another 5 orcones. They were annihilated in an instant. So, I tried again. All artillery, 5 orcones, 5 bantha's and 50 bombers in an all-out assault. As soon as the bots came in range, I issued the bombers to attack. They weren't shot down, because there was no anti-air, but I wanted to test the drain. The skies lighted up brightly red as all of them unleased their bombs. My artillery stopped firing, because of all my aircraft, so that drain was missing. But, same result, even though I drained the crap out of him (man, that was a pretty sight, even at 2fps), all orcones and bantha's were annihilated, and my total kills resulted in most cannons (which were in front of the annihilators), and 3 annihilators. Therefore I deem such an assault impossible, because with plenty of flakkers and missile-towers, the bombers wouldn't even work, and anything without wings is simply a walking target.
So, please forget my previous statement, and I invite anyone for some serious testing on this issue. Oh, I used AA of course.
May I suggest the following test? Set up the same defensive line as before, then walk 70 Sharpshooters (that is a very approximate equal cost, with the defence actually being far higher in all but energy cost) into range on hold fire, be sure to make a nice line. Then, put them all on fire at will. I want to know who wins so much I think I'll do it myself.
What if your Core you say? Sumo's are cloakable and easily slow enough to keep a couple radar jammers with them. You also might try walking a few Arm or Core spy kbots up to them and self-ding them. Knock out the whole line for a bit and then bomb/Orcone-ize/sniper-ize/sumo-ize/lrpc-ize/other killing method-ize them. Or perhaps just walk a small horde of peewees in followed shortly by your big mechs. At least they shut it down for me :shrug:\
Edit: I so should have recorded that. Just did a test similar to AlienDNA's. 30 Annis, with more than 30 Ambushers in front, well more than 60 nano's behind, and 3 repulsors. 2 vulcans and 4 berthas spiked the energy consumption up to 40k, with lows around 20k, and all for a bargain of only 16k! Also some shots were hitting and some targets would have eventually died. After this I lined up a mere 60 sharpshooters in range, combined moving cloak cost of about 30k. Brought in some spotting (conveniently placed radar, no los, no targeting facility) and let em loose. The first barrage took out several ambushers, but it was looking bad. Lost about a dozen sharpshooters in the retaliatory attack. But then things suddenly turned, the next barrage was causing chain reactions along the packed annihilator line bringing down dozens of Anni's and ambushers (whose shots were lacking effectiveness from being in a deflector) in chunks. By the time all 60 were gone, one end of the defensive line had 5 annis and 6 ambushers with 10 nano's, a repulsor, and a radar, with a single lonely anni at the other end of the line. Now, lets see what happens if I throw those last 10 sharpshooters at whats left.
Assumption
Those plans assume he can't spot your cloaking units. If this is some super-porcer, he could easily litter a bunch've dragon's eyes within the kill field of the annihilators.
Paper-rock-scissors tactics assume he's not playing paper, rock, and scissors at the same time.
Paper-rock-scissors tactics assume he's not playing paper, rock, and scissors at the same time.
Indeed. I used to porc a lot myself, and I always started sending out massive amounts of units once my defence-line was deemed indestructible. Count on orcones running out once there are 20 anni's in line, and tons of brawlers and bombers as well. The only real threat to a good defence-line is cloaked units, so I'd use aircraft to scout for rogue radar-jammers/towers, and try to pick up cloaked figures running around through my base. A line of dragons teeth a little in front of the annihilators work wonders against suicide-bots, and the entrance would be constantly guarded. Making a good defence is far easier than a good offence...
That's just the whole point, we have to test this in practice, because the AI doesn't use these defences. Porcers can't win if they stay in their little safe corner for ever.
Oh, Caydr, when you give a targeting facility away, they turn off. Pretty hard getting the AI to target you correctly, because the first barage of lasers always fired past my orcones.
That's just the whole point, we have to test this in practice, because the AI doesn't use these defences. Porcers can't win if they stay in their little safe corner for ever.
Oh, Caydr, when you give a targeting facility away, they turn off. Pretty hard getting the AI to target you correctly, because the first barage of lasers always fired past my orcones.