Appropriate Polygon Counts for Spring

[KDR_11k]

By the way, textures and polygons rarely belong into the same performance equation since they put load on different parts of the graphics card. I recall a nice guide about transform-limited performance vs fillrate-limited performance. It's a pipeline so obviously what you're looking for is the bottleneck, not the sum.

Anyway, the bigger constraint for Spring art is manpower, not the hardware. We have few people with even average skill (compared to regular 3D artists) and the workload for well done and detailed art is very high, considering almost no mod (or should I scratch the "almost" there?) has more than 1-2 skilled artists and those have to create the majority of the unit pool for a mod that's likely ending up with over a hundred unit types. Even if we can make all units 5k poly with a 2048┬▓ set of textures including normalmaps there's no manpower to create models of that spec (non-wastefully) in decent number.

[Argh]

I recall a nice guide about transform-limited performance vs fillrate-limited performance. It's a pipeline so obviously what you're looking for is the bottleneck, not the sum.

That's a nice way of putting it. Any chance you still have the link for that? That might be a useful thing to let people read, if they're trying to figure out what they are aiming for, spec-wise.

[Gertkane]

Just out of curiosity: Am i the only one on this forum that always opts for the average spec pc because high ends are needlessly expensive (until they become outdated and start being the average themselves)?

[maackey]

Just out of curiosity: Am i the only one on this forum that always opts for the average spec pc because high ends are needlessly expensive (until they become outdated and start being the average themselves)?

no

[smoth]

and a few years from now you will have another average pc. For those of us deving to try and be a bit ahead of the hardware we need to be a bit heavy.

[Gertkane]

and a few years from now you will have another average pc. For those of us deving to try and be a bit ahead of the hardware we need to be a bit heavy.

Those of "you" developing? For spring? There is little to no difference when creating content for spring when using a moderin average spec pc and a high end one. Although one exception would be modeling high-poly models for cinematics (which are very taxing even when you use a gfx workstation for them) and perhaps another would be compiling large chunks of code (which will just take more time since you dont have to attent).

[smoth]

Midrange hardware has limited power, my machine is the requirements for gundam. I am not designing it to run for midrange shit, I am designing it for what will be midrange in a few years. If I were running a midrange machine my decisions on performance would have to be based on what that card can do. that isn't what I want to decide my design.

Also more powerful processor and ram does help with map creation as spring has NO splatting right now.

[Gertkane]

Oh dont get me wrong, a high end pc is always good but what i meant was that i can run models such as yours with no visible performance hit in 3dsmax etc. Though i agree, some stages of map creation probably benefit alot from higher CPU-s.

Just out of curiousity Smoth, could you give me a rundown of an approximate average PC as of now?
(you could pm it to me, since it probably serves no other purpose than to feed my curiousity)

[Neddie]

The point is to design the game for play on what will be mid range when it is complete, which means for play on what is high range now. I can make a complete if limited game on my EEE PC, but I wouldn't try to make one to play on my EEE PC.

[smoth]

Oh dont get me wrong, a high end pc is always good but what i meant was that i can run models such as yours with no visible performance hit in 3dsmax etc. Though i agree, some stages of map creation probably benefit alot from higher CPU-s.

you really missed the point.

Just out of curiousity Smoth, could you give me a rundown of an approximate average PC as of now?

no

[Gertkane]

lol what was your point then? that you need a high-spec pc to make your low poly gundam models? even mapmaking doesn't tax the average computer around here, spring also does not require compiling large batches of code.. so where does your real need for a high - end pc come in? Stress tests? Come on.

The point is to design the game for play on what will be mid range when it is complete, which means for play on what is high range now. I can make a complete if limited game on my EEE PC, but I wouldn't try to make one to play on my EEE PC.

I understand all that, i just don't get how smoth thinks his mod will need an average spec pc in a few years, it will barely touch a low end (not talking about the very low integrated level pc-s) as it doesn't even tax the average PC right now.

[krychle]

Just out of curiousity Smoth, could you give me a rundown of an approximate average PC as of now?
(you could pm it to me, since it probably serves no other purpose than to feed my curiousity)

If I understand, you want to know average PC. Look at Steam:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

[Beherith]

In my experience, mapping isnt really limited by CPU, but its really limited by ram and a 32 bit OS.

Making anything above 16*16 is a painful experience on my old 2gb ram machine with 32bit winxp. Even world machine has been pooping out on me lately when making 2k square heightmaps. But thats just cause im a lazy fuck who wants to do as much as possible procedurally, which results in heightfield bloat.

The only time I need CPU for mapping is when I generate textures, but it really doesnt matter if the render takes 2 hours or 6, since Im only doing it once.

Converting the map with mapconv is also a one time thing, really doesnt eat that much CPU, and it doesnt take more than 20 minutes on a 32*32 map.

What you need a good CPU for is IMO playing large games on large maps. Like most of my FFA maps need a fairly decent cpu and gpu if you want to make it into the endgame without a slideshow.

32*32 maps mean your photoshopping around a 768 meg texture file, which is a bitch to handle, especially when you start adding layers for metal patches and other visuals.

So with all that said, mapping (and I suspect that other content devving as well) isnt nearly as limited by your compy as it is by the man hours your willing to spend on one thing.

[smoth]

lol what was your point then? that you need a high-spec pc to make your low poly gundam models?

I didn't say that.

even mapmaking doesn't tax the average computer around here, spring also does not require compiling large batches of code.. so where does your real need for a high - end pc come in? Stress tests? Come on.

what map making have YOU done. no it does use a lot of power to do something beyond crap.

I understand all that, i just don't get how smoth thinks his mod will need an average spec pc in a few years, it will barely touch a low end (not talking about the very low integrated level pc-s) as it doesn't even tax the average PC right now.

You have never played spring. Seriously, I think you are trolling.

[smoth]

So with all that said, mapping (and I suspect that other content devving as well) isnt nearly as limited by your compy as it is by the man hours your willing to spend on one thing.

Considering the amount of work I have ahead of me.. I would say that speed is important. However, a 24x24 using wm2 can take 8 hours to build on my rig.

[Beherith]

Oh right you use WM to texture as well :)
Carrara does 32*32 map texture in 2 hours for me.
I want more cores

Gertkane:
I consider my pc to be fairly average (8800GT, older core 2 duo @ 3.5 ghz, 2gb ram). I use medium-high settings, and without mt, I can easily drop under 20 fps in my kind of games (big ass FFA). With MT im usually fine, I dont drop under 30, so I consider my pc the bare minimum to play spring the way I like it.

[Gertkane]

Sorry Behe if i worded my point wrong. What i meant was, when we are talking about spring there is a huge difference between content creating and playing when compared to fps-s and other modern games. Like you say, big ass FFA-s are very taxing, but testing maps doesn't usually need more than one player, creating single models for a mod to create that big FFA mayhem also does not need a high end pc, writing scripts/code also does not need that.

While i congratulate you smoth in using "you are troll" defence and not posting ANY substance at all and just saying "no, you are wrong" to everything, to avoid the risk of derailing this thread into something useless ill just agree yeah, sure, i was the troll.

If I understand, you want to know average PC. Look at Steam:
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

Exactly what i wanted. Big thanks man.

[smoth]

I am too tired, angry and busy to deal with you being upity. forgive my lack of give a fuck right now

[maackey]

The model has 1024 tris and only one 512 texture, with lua anims.

If you'll notice the upper right hand corner has the frames per second. I had 15fps paused, and 5fps with the sim running, with ~1000 units on screen.
It increased to ~40 with only ~200 units, and zoomed all the way out (with ~1000) it was much, much higher, but it was only showing the icons.

I'm not really sure what causes the slowdown, just thought I'd share and let some more people speculate on this, as I wasn't completely happy with my framerates.

[CarRepairer]

Should I say it?

They may take our lives... but they'll never take.. OUR FREEDOM!!!