Bi-Gender

[lurker]

A certain fraction of a percent of the population will do that and the amount will stay relatively stable, which is what equilibrium means...

If you want to make stupid comments there are better topics.

[knorke]

i think its better to wait for brain transfers.
then just look for someone to swap with.
seems much safer?

[Pxtl]

I really feel bad for modern-day M2F transsexuals. I mean, unless you do it before you're 13, the results aren't all that impressive. I always feel like, if I had gender dysphoria, I'd probably stick to being a dude except in private anyways, rather than deal with being trans... rather than being a stocky, gruff, horse of a woman.

But yeah, if there was like a "spend 2 days lying on your back while the changes happen" pill to turn you into a chick completely reversably? I'd give it a shot for a winter vacation or something.

[bwansy]

smoth: I said much. What fraction of the people you interact with do you go out with and kiss or more, let alone consider breeding with? Can't be that high.

You may not have reached the age when we start to have feelings besides friendship towards the opposite gender, so I won't blame you.

Inevitable?

When a man becomes a woman, then inevitably the male population would drop by one and, just as inevitably, the female population would raise by one, not 2, not 3. Unless that person dies, then the male population would drop by one while the female population remains unchanged. Similarly, when 100 women become men, then the female population would inevitably drop by 100, and the male population would, assume no fatalities, inevitably increase by 100. Why do I have to use such simple words to explain how inevitable it is?

[lurker]

A petty insult, and you're telling me you've dated and kissed in a serious way most of the people opposite your gender you know?
Or are you talking about the breeding comment? I didn't mean flippant thought but actual "I want to raise a child with this person", which is not going to come up that often.


Don't be so picky. Zoombie was talking about those born female, and Neddie mistakenly thought you were making an actual topical point about his post rather than a complaint about wording.

[bwansy]

A petty insult, and you're telling me you've dated and kissed in a serious way most of the people opposite your gender you know?
Or are you talking about the breeding comment? I didn't mean flippant thought but actual "I want to raise a child with this person", which is not going to come up that often.

I apologize for offending you, but I have to make it clear that I had no intention to. This community is full of 12-year-old kids so I thought you were one of them. My bad.

[Gota]

A petty insult, and you're telling me you've dated and kissed in a serious way most of the people opposite your gender you know?
Or are you talking about the breeding comment? I didn't mean flippant thought but actual "I want to raise a child with this person", which is not going to come up that often.

I apologize for offending you, but I have to make it clear that I had no intention to. This community is full of 12-year-old kids so I thought you were one of them. My bad.

Yeah I'm 12.
What is this?

[lurker]

I'm not sure why you think age even matters in this.

[Neddie]

I'm sorry Bwansy, I misinterpreted your first point as actually saying something, specifically that when one man becomes a woman, one woman would become a man to restore some sort of balance. I can't imagine why you explained simple addition in such a convoluted manner, and while I made a mistake in assuming you were just unable to express a more complex idea clearly, I think you've made a worse mistake in attempting to patronize me.

Well, Pxtl, that is a tremendous factor in the closeting of many, perhaps the majority, of MtF individuals. Testosterone is for some an endogenous unidirectional androgenic toxin - if it isn't blocked before the onset of puberty, it destroys the body and compromises the development of the mind. However, I would note that though FtM may have it better hormonally, they have it worse in terms of genital reassignment. Of course, either way a person risks loss of ability.

Knorke, you reminded me of The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. Ah, Heinlein, I can't decide whether I like or dislike his works.

Zoombie is actually in one of the more fortunate psychological positions within the greater trans community, being able to reconcile with his body to some extent. The majority can not. Just a point.

Smoth, all of your points are indeed problems for some people, that is undeniable. It should be noted, as you have, that it is a harsh world and for most trans individuals the points you have raised are tremendous social barriers to the pursuit of their own identities, hence the prevalence of closeted or non-transitional individuals, and the complete stealth of many post-operative transsexuals. However, when you have a non-heteronormative identity, it isn't a matter of rationalization, it is a matter of selfhood - the higher suicide rates among those unable to transition should speak for itself.

Gota, too, is to some extent right - gender does have a lot of weight in common society. Most if not all of us live in local heteronormative reduced patriarchal communities embedded in greater heteronormative patriarchal societies. There are differences in physiology, however I find these generally overstated. Oh, and there have been men with two phallic extrusions, if I recall.

[[TS]Lollocide]

I wonder if anyone else feels the same way as I do about overly verbose pseudo-psycho-science terms.

And on the issue of Bi-Gender, I'm pretty sure most people who flounce around saying they are bi-trans-whatever in the most obtuse manner possible are just attention whores. While a smaller percentage of people who actually feel they are bi-trans-whatever just get on with it with a minimum of flare.

[Gota]

I wonder if anyone else feels the same way as I do about overly verbose pseudo-psycho-science terms.

And on the issue of Bi-Gender, I'm pretty sure most people who flounce around saying they are bi-trans-whatever in the most obtuse manner possible are just attention whores. While a smaller percentage of people who actually feel they are bi-trans-whatever just get on with it with a minimum of flare.

Sounds like a reasonable assumption.

[pintle]

I wonder if anyone else feels the same way as I do about overly verbose pseudo-psycho-science terms.

Having studied sociology, I see merit in the context specific terminology. Try addressing the points that Neddie did in a more concise manner.

[Panda]

It should be noted, as you have, that it is a harsh world and for most trans individuals the points you have raised are tremendous social barriers to the pursuit of their own identities, hence the prevalence of closeted or non-transitional individuals, and the complete stealth of many post-operative transsexuals. However, when you have a non-heteronormative identity, it isn't a matter of rationalization, it is a matter of selfhood - the higher suicide rates among those unable to transition should speak for itself.

I generally think that it's better health-wise for someone who wants to have a sex change to find themselves in some other way aside from having a sex change. Doctors don't know everything about how the brain works and putting all of those hormones to change your gender into your body does not seem like it would do anything good for a person who who was, for example, born a male but who believes that they are actually a female in a man's body. I think that people should be careful of the medications and drugs that they use and how they could affect their overall development, mentally and physically. For example, I don't like the idea of taking medication in which the the side effect could be death if anything else at all could possibly be done or if the medication could be avoided.

Also, as Smoth said, how would becoming a transsexual affect the person's skeletal structure, hormonal fluctuations which regulate things like their blood sugar levels, and cognitive functioning? For example, men and women's thought patterns can differ because of varying levels of things like testosterone, estrogen, and androgen, with men becoming more aggressive when testosterone levels are high, and women following a monthly cycle of hormonal changes. I think that it would be best if the general pattern for dealing with this issue is mind over body instead of following a process that leads one to possibly throw the body completely out of whack until one doesn't have mind over body and ends up committing suicide.

Getting a sex change may not help the transsexual solve his or her problems. The only transsexual that I know of (as in I had a friend who was related to a person who was a transsexual) had a sex change and, later on, committed suicide.

[AF]

I'm gay and I'm proud of it, and I know various trans-gender people and to be honest some of the comments in this thread are horribly misinformed and prejudiced

[Zoombie]

I must be incredibly unobservant, cause I didn't know you were gay, AF.

Ah well, this just means I can hit on you in an even more unabashed way!

[Neddie]

Well, Lollicide, you would not say that all men who revel in their masculinity or all women who revel in their femininity are attention whores, would you? Some are and some are merely compelled to represent themselves actively; this is no different for TG/TS individuals. What is different is that it is clearly safer to simply go into stealth mode in most societies. As for the terms, I assure you, this is both how I speak and really not very verbose - I myself am quite unhappy with the misuse of language we encounter in academia.

Panda, of course it would be better in terms of physical health to somehow find your way to selfhood in a non-medical manner, but transsexuality and other transgender identities are not about finding your way but rather knowing your way. Depending on the degree of gender dysphoria, hormone replacement or surgical reassignment are crucial - the body is wrong in a way which cannot be ignored in accordance with medical transsexuality - this is not so for most TG individuals, and even fewer have the option for various reasons. Mind over body is a delusion, the mind is part of the body, one does not exist without the other and they impact one another profoundly. Expecting somebody who feels they are in the wrong body to simply change their "wrong" mind to make it the right body is no more reasonable than accepting that the body is wrong to their mind and changing the body, and it is rather less respectful - who can say who you are and how you feel, if not yourself?

It is true that a very small percentage of those who undergo voluntary transition do regret it, but generally these people don't meet the requirements for a medical diagnosis of transsexuality or the more rigorous requirements of the TS community to begin with. A supermajority clearly experience psychological benefits and report an improved life experience despite social stigma, personal expense and the negative physical side effects.

[KaiserJ]

everyone has their own life, and i don't really care what they do with it as long as it doesn't screw with mine. something like a sex change, i wouldn't even know where to begin about understanding something like that, it's a completely alien concept to me. if i started thinking about things like that and getting upset about them, i'd never get anything done and i'd be a very bitter person.

side note : i just think it would be creepy if you picked a girl up at the bar, fooled around etc, then next week you're at the same bar, and the girl is there, but she's now a guy.... it wouldn't sit too well with me (at least i dont think it would. lets just hope it never happens.) call me homophobic, maybe i'm just too set in my heterosexual way of thinking, but that's where it would infringe on MY life and happiness...

[Panda]

Mind over body is a delusion, the mind is part of the body, one does not exist without the other and they impact one another profoundly. Expecting somebody who feels they are in the wrong body to simply change their "wrong" mind to make it the right body is no more reasonable than accepting that the body is wrong to their mind and changing the body, and it is rather less respectful - who can say who you are and how you feel, if not yourself?

When I said mind over body I was referring to people's ability to try and take care of their health and, for the most part, be as independent as possible. I did not say that the body and mind do not have an affect on one other or that they were completely independent of one another. For example, you are using the concept of mind over body when you train yourself to effectively adapt your habits and lifestyle in a way that best utilizes your gifts or the tendencies which you have inherited. A more specific example is when a person goes through some sort of physical therapy to recover from something like nerve damage. That sort of thing takes a lot of mental effort and physical training.

Risking your health through unnecessary and dangerous operations does not involve training yourself to adapt. It seems more like either a quick fix or as though that person is so desperate that they are willing to risk hurting themselves and may not be well informed of the long term consequences of their operations. If you think that there aren't many people out there who go into operations without really thinking about all of the consequences it will have as far as their health (long and short term), their psychology (long and short term), their social relationships, and their over all functioning, I'd say that you seem to have an overly optimistic view of the situation. I also don't see why the majority of people in the TS community would really be so much more well informed than a lot of other people out there who get surgeries that aren't performed in order to save their lives from something like cancer or their appendix bursting. Do you have any sort of concrete evidence of how well informed of surgery and all of it's consequences the members of the TS community are? Health education is very important and I haven't really found that kind of information to be readily available where I'm from. What kind of rigorous requirements do people who undergo voluntary transition have to go through in general? Is this sample that you describe that has undergone the transition and meet the rigorous requirements representative of the TS population as a whole?

It is true that a very small percentage of those who undergo voluntary transition do regret it, but generally these people don't meet the requirements for a medical diagnosis of transsexuality or the more rigorous requirements of the TS community to begin with. A supermajority clearly experience psychological benefits and report an improved life experience despite social stigma, personal expense and the negative physical side effects.

That's nice if transsexuals in the TS community are able to improve their life experience and receive psychological benefits. Are these benefits long term and do they work well outside of the TS community? It would suck if Transsexuals had to be confined to their specific community in order to receive significant psychological benefits that out-weigh the negative side effects of their operation. Just having them exist as a part of the TS community doesn't do much for helping them be accepted by society as a whole, if that sort of thing is possible to begin with.

AF, I don't think that many people here are particularly bothered by you being gay and think that most people probably don't think about it a whole lot unless it directly affects their life.

[Super Mario]

everyone wants boobies.

lol evidence?

http://www.holytaco.com/tribute-men-staring-boobs

He said it is a scientific fact, but didn't list any scientific sources to verify this.

[Caydr]

To be clear, I wasn't saying I would want sex change surgery, I was talking about some kind of magical hypothetical nanobot shit... like something out of Ghost in the Shell or something like that. Your brain, in a completely different body.

NOT the michael jackson freakshow treatment where you end up just with bits chopped off and whiskers.

Yechh ok, I gave it some more thought and you're right, it would just be freaky weird. Better to get an android companion instead, best of both worlds.

If such miracles of science were possible I'd more likely go for stuff like, well, ghost in the shell kind of stuff. Crazy athletic ability, strength, speed, enhanced reflexes...