ITT: We discuss the balance of the navy in BA

[Gota]

"QQ im bored of BA cause i'v played it a lot so now i want to change it..."
Sea is fine.

you joke but one of the best things about AA was that every new release felt like a diffrent game

If you like change you Should have played CA until 4k revision series..

[1v0ry_k1ng]

Change every few months was fine, but I cant keep up with CA changing every day

[det]

Why skeet rush sucks (and some B/O's)

The commander can reclaim or capture a skeeter faster than it can kill your factory or anything building in it. Your mexes are completely safe, you only really need to worry about your tidals. People just dont think of the coms nanopower as offensive, they're used to using his gun. If he rushes two or three skeets, enough to actually do some damage, you can prettymuch afford a corvette for that cost anyway.

On SoW at least, skeet can often get to the enemy lab before it starts building the first units, and perpetually kill the nano frame. This will force the commander to try to reclaim/capture, and with good micro delay him quite a bit, allowing you to get a corvette in his base before he has any defense (Often a gg).

[Pxtl]

Change every few months was fine, but I cant keep up with CA changing every day

This hasn't been the case in a long time. CA's gameplay changes have been tiny, incremental tweaks for a long time. Recent changes have primarily been replacing models, new UI, etc. Major gameplay changes are _extremely_ rare now.

[JohannesH]

On SoW at least, skeet can often get to the enemy lab before it starts building the first units, and perpetually kill the nano frame. This will force the commander to try to reclaim/capture, and with good micro delay him quite a bit, allowing you to get a corvette in his base before he has any defense (Often a gg).

make llt

if you make a slow start with no defense you should know youre taking a risk.

[det]

On SoW at least, skeet can often get to the enemy lab before it starts building the first units, and perpetually kill the nano frame. This will force the commander to try to reclaim/capture, and with good micro delay him quite a bit, allowing you to get a corvette in his base before he has any defense (Often a gg).

make llt

if you make a slow start with no defense you should know youre taking a risk.

... but llt will slow you down and you can often still stay out of range and still kill the nanoframes.

[Saktoth]

On SoW at least, skeet can often get to the enemy lab before it starts building the first units, and perpetually kill the nano frame. This will force the commander to try to reclaim/capture, and with good micro delay him quite a bit, allowing you to get a corvette in his base before he has any defense (Often a gg).

You and me. SoW BA 1v1. Right now. You've forgotten how to play old man.

Best you can do is stall me a bit, which is possible yes. But not game ending. Only a few times have you gotten in, stalled me, got out safe, and followed with a clean vette rush: IE when you rush and i do a slow start without defense (usually you'd have had vette out earlier than me anyway). If i reclaim your skeet i get the full metal cost, if i kill it the wreck. If i have gone defense, you'll die anyway. Still, this prettymuch cant happen on a larger map the timing is all wrong.

ADDENDUM: It doesnt even work anymore. After one resounding trouncing of det due to this, we discovered you cant do it at all anymore. Engine changes to factory hitspheres means that the factory hitsphere absorbs all the damage from the skeet- you CANNOT harm the nanoframe inside the shipyard. This only effects lasers (skeet and vette). Missiles, torpedoes and plasma are uneffected and interrupt the nanoframe. In addition, a torpedo passes right through an open shipyard, and will not damage it unless you strike the tiny pillars on the side of the shipyard!

Still, this means its easier than ever to avoid a skeet rush.

Edit to respond to this stupidity:

The scoutboat outranges comm reclaim and is easily 3 times as fast. If you get reclaimed, you're doing it wrong.

Regardless, the scout can harass long enough to get a sub in there, which is the real lockout.

Have you ever actually done this? The com reclaim and skeets laser have about the same range. The skeet handles fairly poorly. It takes seconds for your skeet to be reclaimed, and you cannot even see the com.

If you build the shipyard up against the shore, you just need to stand slightly in front of it and ensure your tidals are behind the shipyard and he wont even get close. If he does, he will be lucky to kill a tidal (less than skeet cost). He will never be able to kill the fac- you can reclaim the skeet while still sitting underneath the yard with com, not to mention you can finish a vette before your shipyard is down to 50% health, even if you only start it when you see the skeet. Hell, even if you start undefended and walk, if you have a conship even 30% finished, you can finish it, reclaim the skeet with it, and not even lose the factory.

Oh, god, i forgot to mention you can get a torpedo launcher up easily while under attack from a skeet (stick your com on repeat and the nanoframe WILL get down after the second try even if he is on it like a hawk).

The problem is noobs who walk their com before having any defense, and who dont see reclaim as a weapon- same problem with weasel really.


Dont get me started on sub rush. If you start the sub before you scout him, you could be building it when he is hovers or air, which means its totally wasted. He may have started with torpedo launcher or depthcharge (which a good player will, sometimes, just to discourage a blind rush) which means the best you can do is contain him (once he has a destroyer up you're toast- worse if he starts destroyer). If you start the sub AFTER you scout him, its hardly a rush anymore, you'd have built a ship inbetween and he'd have a 50/50 chance to have built a torpedo launcher by then. If he hasnt built the TL, its because he is going to rush you with something- that something will probably spot your sub half way and he'll have a TL before you arrive (then you have to worry about defending and pull the sub back anyway).

[YokoZar]

Edit to respond to this stupidity:

The scoutboat outranges comm reclaim and is easily 3 times as fast. If you get reclaimed, you're doing it wrong.

Regardless, the scout can harass long enough to get a sub in there, which is the real lockout.

Have you ever actually done this? The com reclaim and skeets laser have about the same range. The skeet handles fairly poorly. It takes seconds for your skeet to be reclaimed, and you cannot even see the com.

If you build the shipyard up against the shore, you just need to stand slightly in front of it and ensure your tidals are behind the shipyard and he wont even get close. If he does, he will be lucky to kill a tidal (less than skeet cost). He will never be able to kill the fac- you can reclaim the skeet while still sitting underneath the yard with com, not to mention you can finish a vette before your shipyard is down to 50% health, even if you only start it when you see the skeet. Hell, even if you start undefended and walk, if you have a conship even 30% finished, you can finish it, reclaim the skeet with it, and not even lose the factory.

It sounds like this requires a shore where the commander can be in the choke point (like you get with the crescent shaped islands in sands of war).

Have you tried this in open water?

[Saktoth]

It certainly does not, it requires only that the commander be nearish around the fac, and even then, he can walk, and is totally invisible to the scout boat when doing so. Even if he dances in a circle around the factory, he cant actually see your com to evade it. If you really cant catch him, just make a torpedo launcher, or assist your vette (or hell, a scout boat, with repair you will beat his)- you can finish either before he kills factory.

Scout boat takes forever to kill a factory, and cannot harm the nanoframe inside.

[JohannesH]

if you start in open water how the hell did the enemy get a skeeter at you before you have units in the first place?

[Saktoth]

It is true that often, starting in open water is economic suicide.

[JohannesH]

You have teammates for that, to feed you metal early on.

[YokoZar]

It certainly does not, it requires only that the commander be nearish around the fac, and even then, he can walk, and is totally invisible to the scout boat when doing so. Even if he dances in a circle around the factory, he cant actually see your com to evade it. If you really cant catch him, just make a torpedo launcher, or assist your vette (or hell, a scout boat, with repair you will beat his)- you can finish either before he kills factory.

Scout boat takes forever to kill a factory, and cannot harm the nanoframe inside.

He can kill a tidal fairly quickly though. The LLT is 90% about solving this sort of problem on land, and the closest sea equivalent is the torpedo launcher.

You have teammates for that, to feed you metal early on.

Yeah. Is this really the kind of sea game we want though? No early econ and having to build something that costs as much as an immolater to protect against scouts?

[YokoZar]

if you start in open water how the hell did the enemy get a skeeter at you before you have units in the first place?

Probably because you built something other than a skeeter

[JohannesH]

if you start in open water how the hell did the enemy get a skeeter at you before you have units in the first place?

Probably because you built something other than a skeeter

Why would i do that?

[Wombat]

seriously, why so much talking about sea ? its FINE , imo i think sea eco is bit op... ppl whine about coming out of water - wtf, u make SEA lab, no ? also, since when skeeter rush fails ? skeeter rush usually wins a sea early on

[YokoZar]

Sea eco is just about as efficient as land eco, and that's not even counting the advanced fusion -- the sea buildings produce more, but they cost more too. Now, some maps have huge tidal values, but often they have huge wind values too.

The one nice advantage of sea is the t1 conship. It's got the best ratio of build power and innate resources vs cost of all the cons, although the con sub has the worst (and the engineer doesn't even have inbuilt resources, unlike the freaker and consul)

[Wombat]

Sea eco is just about as efficient as land eco, and that's not even counting the advanced fusion

definitely underwater fus, best mms, and tidals which are best t1 e source on probably all maps with water is not advantage... not at all. also i have never seen t2 water eco chain. leave sea alone already, try to beat water guy in ffa, then say sea is weak...

[Pxtl]

seriously, why so much talking about sea ? its FINE , imo i think sea eco is bit op... ppl whine about coming out of water - wtf, u make SEA lab, no ? also, since when skeeter rush fails ? skeeter rush usually wins a sea early on

I think the complaint is the reverse - the sea-game rush is too hard to fight. Yes, when you get good at it you learn the rules (1) hit sea ASAP, (2) rush skeeters, (3) use your comm to repair your defenders and live-reclaim the enemy... but that's all far more complicated than plonking down an LLT or blasting them with the comm's laser.

[Wombat]

u just make torp which repaired by com is epic rape at the beginning of the game and can be killed usually just with destroyer. simple as that. my opinion is that sea is op but i think its the matter of maps, not navy itself