support for creating next-generation maps

[V1ntage]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20107

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before. I'd like to be able to enhance Spring by creating more complex and beautiful maps similar to the ones shown below. Currently it seems not possible to create custom geometry-based maps like these. Correct me if I'm wrong :) I'm convinced that next-gen maps can give Spring a complete new dimension in terms of gameplay and visual presentation. It also offers the possibility to create or enhance mods with new and deeper gameplay.

[smoth]

see my reply in the other thread. All those assets have to be created, game development is not magic.

[zwzsg]

In all those RTS maps, all the extra polygons are also just for look. You don't really need a new map format to make the same kind of maps in Spring. What you need, however, is to model all those pretty geometry yourself, as Smoth said. A new format won't create the assets.

The custom geometry will be intangible or solid features overlaid on top of the primitive landscape-map that is the true face of a Spring map.

The maps of those other RTS are no different!

[V1ntage]

yes I noticed in the other thread. (please close this one if possible to prevent confusion)

I'll try to create a next-gen map pretty soon.

[Gota]

How do you make custom features blend with the map so players wont see they are separated?
Like for example If I want to create a cliff how do I make sure you cant see that it is separated from the map itself at the points where the feature meets the map.

[V1ntage]

I believe it's a matter of very good texturing or texture blending, and implement a workflow that allows you to hide any possible errors.

[zwzsg]

How do you make custom features blend with the map so players wont see they are separated?
Like for example If I want to create a cliff how do I make sure you cant see that it is separated from the map itself at the points where the feature meets the map.

I would advise making sure the geometries interpenetrate. For instance, when you model a tree, don't cut it right at the surface, model the start of the underground root as well.

Another problem I have found is that on low settings, the geometry of the terrain far away is deformed, and stop matching my extra OpenGL Lua geomety.

[KaiserJ]

the problem i've had creating something like the second image... when you have a vertical wall in a spring map, the texture stretches. the way that the map texture is stored is a single 2d image... looking at the vertical walls and how nice they look, i can only assume that they are created using a map format that stores texture information for vertical surfaces as well as horizontal.

there are a few ways to fake the effect...

1) if you include a feature like a vertical wall in the heightmap, make the wall very slightly angled rather than truly vertical. in my experimentation, i've found that a 1/8 slope can look pretty good if you work a bit with the texture (the best results seem to come from using a lined texture that runs vertically up the wall; you can get a nice looking "retaining wall" effect without running into too much of the ugliness of texture distortion.

2) if you don't want to fake the effect, and would rather include walls as models, it's a matter of creating the walls as 3d models (i would say thinking of them as tiles would work best) and adding them to your map by positioning them right next to a vertical wall on the heightmap. for this i would suggest springmapedit for the feature placement. however, you sometimes get some funny things happening with the exact sizes for the features (try using three wall pieces, and get them to match exactly with a wall on your heightmap, and you'll see what i mean) as well as some collision issues (units firing from the edge of a cliff that uses a feature as a wall have some collision issues, it doesnt seem feasable to have a 3d wall model that extends the full height of your heightmap wall if you want things to stand at the edge and shoot up or down)

something else i could offer as advice... creating a "nextgen" map using the standard methods of spring mapping may prove difficult; i would suggest modelling the landscape (if you intend to do any natural features) then import it into some 3d software like max, add your large building features as textured models, grab your maps texturemap from the overhead orthographic perspective, then grab your heightmap by combining all of the objects in your scene and giving them a white-to-black vertical gradient texture (there was one readily available in max when i looked.) then you could add smaller, more detailed models later as features from springmapedit.

i hope any of these ideas were helpful, as i've experimented with what you're looking at doing... i certainly think that making an almost comparable map to those is possible (if you forget about some of the crazy fog and ambient stuff for now) but it'll be tough, and you are pretty much in uncharted territory as you go... i'd still be working on it if i wasnt making so many models of blinged out tractors these days, and i will pick it up again in future.

look me up on the lobby if you feel i could be a help

[zwzsg]

(if you forget about some of the crazy fog and ambient stuff for now)

We have maps with foggy lower levels already. Not sure what you mean with ambient stuff, but it probably can be done with some Gaia unit (gaia being the name of the team of neutral units belonging to the map).

vertical wall [...]

there are a few ways to fake the effect...

1) [..]

2) [..]

3) I lend you my code to draw textured cliffs with Lua.

[KaiserJ]

crazy fog and ambient stuff

i was just sort of meaning that there was a lot going on in those screens that in a spring map, would not have anything to do with the heightmap or texture... in the first pic, it looks like the billboards are glowing, i haven't seen anything like that in a spring map yet but i'm sure it could be done.

could you explain a bit about how the texturing script works for vertical surfaces? that looks omgcrazy to me... i wish i had known of this before. also the bridges... how do they work? what map is it? i need to crack it open like an egg of win and feast on the secrets and wizardry concealed inside. seems like you have an endless archive of awesome spring stuff that you've done ages ago that i'm not aware of.

[Caydr]

Z, that map, what's it called? A comment there says it's Inculta, but I looked that one up and it appears to be almost totally flat.

[Jazcash]

Next-gen maps would take a lot of work to put together. It's would be pretty hard to make such pixel perfect maps like those with Spring due to the unpixel perfect map system.

I think it's more a case of making loads and loads of sexy features and then making them fixed to and part of the map. Just something where you can drop things like different types and styles of trees, walls, buildings, tiles etc.

To make such detailed and exact maps I think an advanced editor would be needed. Something like SpringMapEdit but a lot lot more advanced.
Crysis's Sandbox 2 Style!

[smoth]

feature placer and world builder allow for the in game placement of objects.

[Super Mario]

Can be possible to create bridges by using features and allowing units to cross across or went underneath the gap below of the bridge. Some many possibility open up.

[smoth]

one thing at a time mario.

[Caydr]

World Builder? What's that? Sounds pretty awesome and superior to everything else ever made. A testament to mankind's genius and ingenuity, even.

[smoth]

I KNOW RITE!

[Gota]

-

[zwzsg]

could you explain a bit about how the texturing script works for vertical surfaces? that looks omgcrazy to me... i wish i had known of this before. also the bridges... how do they work? what map is it? i need to crack it open like an egg of win and feast on the secrets and wizardry concealed inside. seems like you have an endless archive of awesome spring stuff that you've done ages ago that i'm not aware of.

The chasm is voidwater. The cliff and bridges are drawn with Lua. The bridge can be walked over but not under.

Z, that map, what's it called?

Not released yet. Started it like a month ago, didn't finish placing feature, and when I wanted to finish it, found out that in 0.80.2, contrary to 0.79, floating features falls and underground features pop to surface, which mean I have to find a new way around.

Can be possible to create bridges by using features and allowing units to cross across or went underneath the gap below of the bridge. Some many possibility open up.

No. Units do not move over the surface of features. Features are either blocking (no ground units can pass), or non-blocking (ground units go right through them).

[V1ntage]

Thanks for all the replies!

So we have World Builder, an editor made by Argh and SpringMapEditor. Seems like that's all we need to get started. If you combine them with the technique KaiserJ mentioned (using a 3D editor like 3DSMax, Blender or similar) there's some pretty powerful stuff we can do.

I believe that once it's proven that Spring maps can look even better it will be a lot easier to ask/implement new features. On to the drawing boards. We need art!