Archer vs Shredder

[mongus]

Archer and shredder (arm and core t2 aa ships) have a difference in DPS.

The costs are quite similar, with archer being more expensive in metal (strange as its the arm counterpart), and shredder being little more expensive in BT and E cost.

However, there is a big difference in DPS (150 to 117).

There is another difference not shown in the picture, its the way they fire missiles, archer fires a volley of 3, shredder fires just one, but more powerfull.

I must calculate the dps vs air units (archer does 100 per missile, and shredder does 130), but i think the difference there is even more.



the dps is shown in the calc

[Jools]

Nice homework. If you want a better calculator i suggest to use the power calculator instead.

What about the swarm effect of those shells? Do they cause damage to multiple units as in ota?

[babbles]

did you take into account the flak gun?

[mongus]

Yes of course babbles, just sum the numbers as i told you.

also as you pointed out, shredder has :

more hp 2450 vs 2360 (3%)
more flak range 750 vs 700 (7%)
more missile range 880 vs 850 (3%)
is slower 2.6 vs 2.7 max speed (3%)

costs less metal but more energy
Metal/Energy cost: 2168/17921 (3%) (5%)
vs
Metal/Energy cost: 2240/17058

which im not sure where it leads us to.

but in general we can say that the variation of costs/capabilities is around 5%?

while the difference in damage is of 28% when attacking land units

for land to air, the overall dps is

archer 366 (correct me if im wrong)

shredder 205

which means 78% more dps for the archer.

way too much... its really odd, in game i have never notticed this. but thats what the numbers say.

jools, its same aoe for flak gun in both ships, 150
and the same aoe for missiles 48 in both ships.


Edit:

well after several RG (realgame) tests, ive managed to determine, an effective damage advantage of 20% for the archer vs the shredder.

testing setup was avg time for killing 10 brawlers (on hold fire) for one of each ship. (not so simple, ask for more details if you like)

archer averages 24.05 sec
shredder averages 28.83 sec


strange results i would say taking into account the theorical 78% advantage vs air.

i can blame some archers' burst missiles going to waste bc of killed target, while shredder hits all its missiles bc of single shot firing.
who knows, not looked at that specifically.


so, any suggestions on changes?

[1v0ry_k1ng]

all sea kinda needs redoing, but the solve all solution is just change the archer dps- which takes about two seconds- so they are similar again

[FaerieWithBoots]

Not all stats should be the same. Its ok if one sidse has more effective AA as long as it is compensated somewhere else. For exampleBetter bombardships. Look at Starcraft, you have 3 completely different sets of units and are still balanced. :)

[Jools]

I agree with this. To have everything equal, everything the same, is beginning to sound like the feminist movement. :)

[babbles]

EVERYTHING MUST BE EQUAL!

DAMAGE STATS ONLY COUNT!

EVERYTHING ELSE IS IRRELEVANT!!

SEA SHOULD ONLY CONTAIN SHIPS WITH 999999 HP AND DO 9999 DAMAGE!

[mongus]

oh ma gawd! babbles troll mode!

well, hmp well..

food for the troll, hope he chokes :

its not me saying all must be equal, the one saying that is babbles:

Arm T2 con sub can't make fort wall, core can. - Fixed

Core Missle Frigate fires higher than ranger meaning can fire over cliffs while Ranger can not. - Fixed - Differentiation reduced, but core still fires slightly higher.

Core t2 air constructer makes +11 e, arm makes +12, same for t1, arm makes 5.5, core 5. - Problem?

Some defences are built packed up, while others popped up already (anni/dmm vs popups/viper).

Different faction's kamikaze subs have different descriptions. - Fixed

Arm Jeffy is "Fast Attack Vehicle" while Core Weasel is "Scout". - Fixed, should be "fast attack vehicle" for wezel

Fark and Rez bot need similar descriptions, both do same thing but different descriptions. - Fixed

Arm Ranger needs radar, it has one on model and the Core Frigate has radar. - Fixed

Babbles, not only weapon stats count, thats why i posted other values, but you fail to read/comprehend twice now.

Wonder why you are acting like that, its just a bugfix for christ sake.


well but leaving that aside.



Jools, i agree must be differences, but in general the differences between core and arm are not as big as 20% in comparable units. (ak - peewee , crasher jethro etcetc.)
So, yes the values must differ, but the costs and the stats must match accordingly.
Or you would like to pay 5% more for a similar unit but have 20% less dps?



IK, thats a way of doing it, yes, tweaking stats... but had something else in mind. But adding a 15% more damage to both missile damages (land and landair) would be a fix.

I would like some other suggestions to address the fix.

Not all stats should be the same. Its ok if one sidse has more effective AA as long as it is compensated somewhere else.

Thats what i mean, that somewhere else could be the cost, speed, hp, ..... but in this case in particular, it seems the area that needs tweaking is the weapons part, dps of the missiles.

Any word from noruas?

[babbles]

in your post you made reference to cost and fighting stats, no others, like range and health, I pointed this out to you and you reconsidered what you said

and, there's a difference between "they should have same damage stats" to "they should both be able to build walls" so dont say I'm the one wanting them the same, descriptions are little things yes, but for 2 units that fulfill the same role, they should have same descriptions, otherwise you say to a noob "make a weasel" he looks for an arm equivilent and can't find it, makes a flash tank instead...

It isn't a "bug fix" it's a balance change, a bug fix is making the jammrs spin properly, stopping hovernap or other exploits, not changing stats

[mongus]

The other stats that you mentioned, are posted and compared with percentages.

And if you really want to know why I'm "acting like this" it's because I'm sick of you, every time you play "destroyers suck vs patrol boats! zippers need more dps! destroyers need more accuracyand dps! scout missles need more dps! and on and on and on...

Its escential to have a good mod to discuss/tweak/fix/unfix the balance, more about those later


what about this bug? anything to say?

edit: anyhow, appreciate your sincerity, and i think im at times overkill about some issues... (like this one) but some need addresing.