You send a scount and wham get all the buildings you see right on the minimap. Don't you like... react on that? One doesn't even have to spend a second to check them out. The whole scouting skill section which separated the pros from news is... gone.
And by AI, in this case, I mean the game, which does everything for you so you don't have to worry playing anymore.
Minimap idea
Moderator: Moderators
Ah the ghost buildings... yes I agree. This feature does not add depth or challenge it decreases both.
What about the OTA and Spring feature which gives units the ability to return fire on targets that are out of sight? - This seems illogical to me, if it is to be allowed at all it should be very inaccurate (particularly in estimated range).
Or the Spring feature that gives units the ability to shoot at radar blips without a targeting facility? - This one does make more sense, but maybe its too effective as who bothers with a targeting facility now?
What about the OTA and Spring feature which gives units the ability to return fire on targets that are out of sight? - This seems illogical to me, if it is to be allowed at all it should be very inaccurate (particularly in estimated range).
Or the Spring feature that gives units the ability to shoot at radar blips without a targeting facility? - This one does make more sense, but maybe its too effective as who bothers with a targeting facility now?
Wow... this rather innocuse idea has spiraled into name calling rather quickly...
Well i think that buildings... DONT move. And when your scouting you jot down the general location of a building. So gosting seems a resonable way to do things, as it's just your last known report from the scouting partys. It dosent mean you can send a pepeer over the enemy base and forget about scouting for the rest of the game. That would be suicidal.
But i'm not really getting what your so angry about, Storm. Gosted buildings DONT remove the 'skill' part of scouting. It DOSENT remove the need to scout before an attack and it DOSENT detrimient the game in any way i can see.
Now to turn TAS into "Tic-Tac-Toe" we'd need a resoursing A.I. Oh and a combat A.I. And some base building A.I, and a lot of other complex and well put together A.I's that don't appear in even BIG name RTS's! Warcraft III A.I's needed to cheat just to stay alive, as did OTA. So what your afraid of is pretty impossible.
BUt hey you could always play chess. Plenty of micromanagement in there!
Now on the idea itself
I had a hard time decifereing it, no offence, but the way i understand it is that when you scout a base, the base's territory is marked off with the colour of the team. So you can see the general area of the enemy's central base, but wont be able to keep tabs on the entire thing with out continual scouting.
It seems a little useless, actually. A skilled player would be able to find out that information a few seconds after building a aircraft plant. ALso it sounds a little hard to implement.[/quote]
Well i think that buildings... DONT move. And when your scouting you jot down the general location of a building. So gosting seems a resonable way to do things, as it's just your last known report from the scouting partys. It dosent mean you can send a pepeer over the enemy base and forget about scouting for the rest of the game. That would be suicidal.
But i'm not really getting what your so angry about, Storm. Gosted buildings DONT remove the 'skill' part of scouting. It DOSENT remove the need to scout before an attack and it DOSENT detrimient the game in any way i can see.
Now to turn TAS into "Tic-Tac-Toe" we'd need a resoursing A.I. Oh and a combat A.I. And some base building A.I, and a lot of other complex and well put together A.I's that don't appear in even BIG name RTS's! Warcraft III A.I's needed to cheat just to stay alive, as did OTA. So what your afraid of is pretty impossible.
BUt hey you could always play chess. Plenty of micromanagement in there!
Now on the idea itself
I had a hard time decifereing it, no offence, but the way i understand it is that when you scout a base, the base's territory is marked off with the colour of the team. So you can see the general area of the enemy's central base, but wont be able to keep tabs on the entire thing with out continual scouting.
It seems a little useless, actually. A skilled player would be able to find out that information a few seconds after building a aircraft plant. ALso it sounds a little hard to implement.[/quote]
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PauloMorfeo
- Posts: 2004
- Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53
I think ghosted buildings should be eliminated from the game.
I think the queueing system should be eliminated from the game.
I think patrol ».
I think guard ».
I think moving several units at the same time ». We should only be able to give orders to one unit at a time.
I think units having the possibility to fire on they're own ».
I think units having the possibility to chase enemy units ».
I think all that made Total Annihilation the game it is should be removed from TA Spring.
It's freaking retarded to watch the AI do all those things for us.
I think we should all go play Warcraft (1). No, wait. That one has the AI do some things for us.
[/sarcasm]
I think the queueing system should be eliminated from the game.
I think patrol ».
I think guard ».
I think moving several units at the same time ». We should only be able to give orders to one unit at a time.
I think units having the possibility to fire on they're own ».
I think units having the possibility to chase enemy units ».
I think all that made Total Annihilation the game it is should be removed from TA Spring.
It's freaking retarded to watch the AI do all those things for us.
I think we should all go play Warcraft (1). No, wait. That one has the AI do some things for us.
[/sarcasm]
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
OK people, can we stop flaming each other?
Storm, what you are saying is valid, but you, unfortunatley, are the minority in most of these arguments. You are allowed your opinion on what is good and what is not, but so is everyone else. And, just a question, what other stupid Auto-Game-Playing tool has been implemented that you so obviously dont like?
Everyone else, Just because people have different opinions does not mean that we can start flaming each other. ORDERLY, CIVILISED arguments are better, not to mention easier to read.
I personally dont mind ghosted buildings. It does come in handy, while not taking to much away from gameplay at all.
Example of a civilised argument:
I think that this minimap idea would not really work very well. Not only would you now not have to watch scouts, but you would be able to without basicly any effort, direct a battle from your own base. That would be stupid. You should hav to be in the battle yourself to get a feel of how its going. Not to mention that doing fancy computations to find out where bases begin and end would be insanley hard to implement. But, IMO, a way to mark points on the minimap would suffice. You would have to actualy be there and SEE the building/object to mark it. It would just work as a memory AID, not a replacment. Alternativley, you could as someone else suggested, show the drawings/point's people have placed on the map in the minimap. This would also work quite effectivley.
Storm, what you are saying is valid, but you, unfortunatley, are the minority in most of these arguments. You are allowed your opinion on what is good and what is not, but so is everyone else. And, just a question, what other stupid Auto-Game-Playing tool has been implemented that you so obviously dont like?
Everyone else, Just because people have different opinions does not mean that we can start flaming each other. ORDERLY, CIVILISED arguments are better, not to mention easier to read.
I personally dont mind ghosted buildings. It does come in handy, while not taking to much away from gameplay at all.
Example of a civilised argument:
I think that this minimap idea would not really work very well. Not only would you now not have to watch scouts, but you would be able to without basicly any effort, direct a battle from your own base. That would be stupid. You should hav to be in the battle yourself to get a feel of how its going. Not to mention that doing fancy computations to find out where bases begin and end would be insanley hard to implement. But, IMO, a way to mark points on the minimap would suffice. You would have to actualy be there and SEE the building/object to mark it. It would just work as a memory AID, not a replacment. Alternativley, you could as someone else suggested, show the drawings/point's people have placed on the map in the minimap. This would also work quite effectivley.
Storm, ever read this?
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... &start=100
(read sergeys posts)
Well, i don't know what to think.
This suggestion will offcourse elminate much tedius work of aculy checking the map when scouting. woop-de-do.
I don't know, since i kinda like ghosted buildings. They pretty helpfull, but removes some of the strategy. For example, if i see radar blips around ghosted buildings, i know they are still there, witch means i bascly sees his base with radar only. And i can target to a pin-point acurcy (depeding on the wepon, offcourse.)
I say remove this suggestion, since it will remove the skill involed of scouting, and i also say that we add a button to remove ghosted buildings, for the same reson.
What im not agsint is to pins showing up on minimap (and hopefully the name of the pin comes up when you hover over it ).
That would be great, pin an area, then select attack and click the pin!
Offcourse, this will only work with the new GUI.
BTW storm...
Why are you hating Spring(and/or)XTA so much? It can't all be ghosted buildings, right?
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... &start=100
(read sergeys posts)
Well, i don't know what to think.
This suggestion will offcourse elminate much tedius work of aculy checking the map when scouting. woop-de-do.
I don't know, since i kinda like ghosted buildings. They pretty helpfull, but removes some of the strategy. For example, if i see radar blips around ghosted buildings, i know they are still there, witch means i bascly sees his base with radar only. And i can target to a pin-point acurcy (depeding on the wepon, offcourse.)
I say remove this suggestion, since it will remove the skill involed of scouting, and i also say that we add a button to remove ghosted buildings, for the same reson.
What im not agsint is to pins showing up on minimap (and hopefully the name of the pin comes up when you hover over it ).
That would be great, pin an area, then select attack and click the pin!
Offcourse, this will only work with the new GUI.
BTW storm...
Why are you hating Spring(and/or)XTA so much? It can't all be ghosted buildings, right?
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Hell no. I think the ghosted buildings are lame face too.Maelstrom wrote:Storm, what you are saying is valid, but you, unfortunatley, are the minority in most of these arguments. You are allowed your opinion on what is good and what is not, but so is everyone else. And, just a question, what other stupid Auto-Game-Playing tool has been implemented that you so obviously dont like?
If it's too much effort to tag things you've scouted with markers then you suck at the game. It's rediculously lame when an airscout paints an enemies whole base automatically and then the player just pops up an artillery and shells the important structures, all without having to drop a second from thier micromanagement.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Ya, I like acctually playing the game, ala LOOKING WHERE MY SCOUT IS FLYING AND MARKING THE UNIT LOCATIONS MANUALLY. Currently the scouts are retardely weak in order to keep them from being super lame and marking up the whole base in a single pass. the requirements of proper spotting would allow scouts to not be superlameweak and acctually maby be useful in the late game once in a while.Min3mat wrote:...
so scouting should be discouraged? u shouldn't be punished for having too little AA? u could scout back? u could salient and attack the artillery? u could actually play the game???
But then again, I completely forgot why I quit debating on these boards.But i'm not really getting what your so angry about, Storm. Gosted buildings DONT remove the 'skill' part of scouting. It DOSENT remove the need to scout before an attack and it DOSENT detrimient the game in any way i can see.
I'm not gonna repeat my arguments against ghosted buildings because quite frankly, after seven pages of intense debate where everyone blatantly ignored all of my arguments and ranted about monkeys, I got fed up and quit these boards.But i'm not really getting what your so angry about, Storm. Gosted buildings DONT remove the 'skill' part of scouting. It DOSENT remove the need to scout before an attack and it DOSENT detrimient the game in any way i can see.
Pathetic. If you can't differ between functions and gameplay, don't speak.It's freaking retarded to watch the AI do all those things for us.
I think we should all go play Warcraft (1). No, wait. That one has the AI do some things for us.
If we're gonna make a chess analogy, it would be something like a warning system when any of your pieces is under threat (which ain't such a big issue really, but would totally ruin the gameplay). Please, if you don't have a clue of what I'm talking about, just don't post.Queens take the same number of turns to move as pawns in chess? WTF, UNBALANCED! I'm quitting chess until they release a patch.
Yes, because all the people like me have lost and left long ago. We still play Old TA and snicker at your suggestions.Storm, what you are saying is valid, but you, unfortunatley, are the minority in most of these arguments.
Several.And, just a question, what other stupid Auto-Game-Playing tool has been implemented that you so obviously dont like?
Sergey wants ultramacro. There are things out there like Ground Assault... or what was the name of the game where you don't have any base or resouces and the game concentrates on purely handling the troops? Want supermacro, go there...
Someone that at least understands the way I reason. Thank you.I don't know, since i kinda like ghosted buildings. They pretty helpfull, but removes some of the strategy. For example, if i see radar blips around ghosted buildings, i know they are still there, witch means i bascly sees his base with radar only. And i can target to a pin-point acurcy (depeding on the wepon, offcourse.)
This forum is full of people that keep on suggesting sollution to things they can't handle. And yet, despite my resistance and, back then, reasonable, extensive arguments, they were implemented one by one. So most of us veterans left, critically disappointed by the evolution of the game.BTW storm...
Why are you hating Spring(and/or)XTA so much? It can't all be ghosted buildings, right?
The only time I was right and the explosion craters were sized down was after the whole fucking forum had turned on me for saying that explosions were too deep and that it rendered vehicles obsolete.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Well, you tell that to Sergey, not me, min3mat
Read what I wrote up there. It doesn't inflict on the balance since it's equal for both players, but it would ruin large chunks of the gameplay.
I don't like stupid analogies, that's all.mmm, sorry you don't like jokes about chess... I just think it's stupid when people referance chess in blanace threads, since chess is fairly balanced.
Read what I wrote up there. It doesn't inflict on the balance since it's equal for both players, but it would ruin large chunks of the gameplay.
Maybe there is no right or wrong here, but no one should have to leave disapointed.
Spring is supposed to be modable and expandable, it was to supposed to support the content of OTA. I rather took that to mean the gameplay as well, and I can see from Storms points that may not be the case.
The solution is simple and I cant see why it would be hard to implement. We should be able to switch features (like ghost buildings) off if we want to. It could be a mod option or a lobby option so long as it is the same for all players in one game it will be fair.
No needs be alienated over this, Spring will be better will more players, even if they not all playing the same version, mod, rule set or whatever.
Spring is supposed to be modable and expandable, it was to supposed to support the content of OTA. I rather took that to mean the gameplay as well, and I can see from Storms points that may not be the case.
The solution is simple and I cant see why it would be hard to implement. We should be able to switch features (like ghost buildings) off if we want to. It could be a mod option or a lobby option so long as it is the same for all players in one game it will be fair.
No needs be alienated over this, Spring will be better will more players, even if they not all playing the same version, mod, rule set or whatever.
It's just that every time I turn down an idea because it kills a bit of the gameplay, I always get at least one retard to scream "OH GNOES U WNAT CONTROL UNETS ONE BY ONE ALSO, HAHA ROFL UR SUCH A NOOB!!!12".
Gnome was working on minispring (and combinating that with OTA style), but everytime Spring updates, he has to remake large chunks of it and I don't know if he even bothers anymore.
Gnome was working on minispring (and combinating that with OTA style), but everytime Spring updates, he has to remake large chunks of it and I don't know if he even bothers anymore.
i never really liked Minispring but he sure did put a HELL of a lot of work into it!
but i like ghost buildings, simply coz it makes scouting more of a option. i think that the mod-makers should be able to switch it though! ghost buildings in OTA are just strange! completely destroy balance+gameplay (but i reckon they work in xta
)
but i like ghost buildings, simply coz it makes scouting more of a option. i think that the mod-makers should be able to switch it though! ghost buildings in OTA are just strange! completely destroy balance+gameplay (but i reckon they work in xta
)
Too many of the features added by the SY's and others are defacto turned on or off.
Controversial features should be implemented BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE OFF BY DEFAULT.
Ghosted buildings is a prime example of this. I find ghosted buildings useful. I do ltos of playtests with developing NTAI, so I start a game then I bugger off to watch TV and come bakc 20 mins later. Ghosted buildings tells me if the scouting has bene done and if they've atatcked and how well to some extent. If this feature was rmeoved I have the necessary AI interface functions to implement my own crude version for debug versions of NTAI.
Spring should have lots of options and support for option prfiles, and should come bundled with Hardcore OTA style for as close as possible gameplay, and Spring style with the most popular options turned on.
Then we could retain the ebenfits of having onyl a few options while allowing all these wierd features to be implemented, you just ahve to go in and turn them on.
And a nice tweak to the lobby to force players to conform to option profiles settings (except video settings or settings that dotn really effect gameplay like inverted mouse buttons or dynamic clouds).
The profiles thing would only need changes to be made in the lobby and settings program. It'd also be better to change spring code so the settings program ahd more options anyways, to give users more control.
And to pre-empt AI arguements and resolve problems past done, I suggest the lobby have a simple whitelist of GroupAI and GlobalAI dll's. So far there isnt a stable flow of new AI dll's so it'd easily be handled by betalord simply adding a line of code and an if statement. Then we could argue over wteher it is worth using in the forum or if ti gives too much away. We might even add those to settings profiles.
EDIT: oh I didnt see that min3mat, you must ahve posted while I was typing, I suggest we also let mods give out 'suggested' profiles too so XTA may have a preferred setting for ghosted buildings versus OTA which might have a different rpeferred setting.
Controversial features should be implemented BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE OFF BY DEFAULT.
Ghosted buildings is a prime example of this. I find ghosted buildings useful. I do ltos of playtests with developing NTAI, so I start a game then I bugger off to watch TV and come bakc 20 mins later. Ghosted buildings tells me if the scouting has bene done and if they've atatcked and how well to some extent. If this feature was rmeoved I have the necessary AI interface functions to implement my own crude version for debug versions of NTAI.
Spring should have lots of options and support for option prfiles, and should come bundled with Hardcore OTA style for as close as possible gameplay, and Spring style with the most popular options turned on.
Then we could retain the ebenfits of having onyl a few options while allowing all these wierd features to be implemented, you just ahve to go in and turn them on.
And a nice tweak to the lobby to force players to conform to option profiles settings (except video settings or settings that dotn really effect gameplay like inverted mouse buttons or dynamic clouds).
The profiles thing would only need changes to be made in the lobby and settings program. It'd also be better to change spring code so the settings program ahd more options anyways, to give users more control.
And to pre-empt AI arguements and resolve problems past done, I suggest the lobby have a simple whitelist of GroupAI and GlobalAI dll's. So far there isnt a stable flow of new AI dll's so it'd easily be handled by betalord simply adding a line of code and an if statement. Then we could argue over wteher it is worth using in the forum or if ti gives too much away. We might even add those to settings profiles.
EDIT: oh I didnt see that min3mat, you must ahve posted while I was typing, I suggest we also let mods give out 'suggested' profiles too so XTA may have a preferred setting for ghosted buildings versus OTA which might have a different rpeferred setting.
Last edited by AF on 26 Oct 2005, 18:34, edited 1 time in total.