Mod / Map separation

[Regret]

Listen, if you disagree with me on this point then respond to it:
Map files overriding doesn't matter, they don't need it, you could have mod files override and nothing would change, maps could still do what they want.

I do not disagree with it. How is it relevant?

[smoth]

GADGET WARS

GADGET WARS

[lurker]

Listen, if you disagree with me on this point then respond to it:
Map files overriding doesn't matter, they don't need it, you could have mod files override and nothing would change, maps could still do what they want.

I do not disagree with it. How is it relevant?

You don't? I wonder however I got that impression.

Hierarchy is currently forced since mapfiles take priority over modfiles.

[Regret]

You don't? I wonder however I got that impression.

Hierarchy is currently forced since mapfiles take priority over modfiles.

One thing taking priority over another is hierarchy. And it is forced since the map can include its own gadget handler and disable any mod lua.

[lurker]

The 'hiearchy' is minor and doesn't matter. The mod can include its own code to disable any map lua, and as to gadget wars, mods update more often than maps.

[Regret]

The hiearchy is minor and doesn't matter. The mod can include its own code to disable any map lua, and as to gadget wars, mods update more often than maps.

It is not minor and it does matter. The map can include a custom gadget handler as I said and then the mod cannot do anything to block the map lua.

[lurker]

How custom are we talking? It's going to disable all the lua in the entire mod? It doesn't matter because no map has ever done this, or has any reason to. Let's pretend mod takes priority in LuaRules, map takes priority in LuaGaia. That's the plan for when somebody codes it. Map and Mod can still ruin each other. No hierarchy. Do you still want this flag?

[Regret]

How custom are we talking? It's going to disable all the lua in the entire mod? It doesn't matter because no map has ever done this, or has any reason to.

To 2nd question: yes. The fact it did not happen yet does not mean it does not matter. There was no 'gadget wars' going on yet.

Let's pretend mod takes priority in LuaRules, map takes priority in LuaGaia. That's the plan for when somebody codes it. Map and Mod can still ruin each other. No hierarchy. Do you still want this flag?

If that was done as you said, then no I do not see the need for such a flag as mods could simply include gadgets detecting additional units and notify the players and/or shutdown.

[lurker]

It's not as easy for maps to win as you think. The mod can scatter self-destruct codes all over that rely on the lua being intact, and simply release new versions often enough that it can't easily be cracked.

...Does anyone want to play Gadget Wars with me? :D

[smoth]

...Does anyone want to play Gadget Wars with me? :D

oh god, the forum game now continues into the lobby, this is horrifying.

[Strategia]

Name one, just one, good example of where this (and the other topic) would be effective, besides DSD Special. Which will have either disappeared into oblivion, or will have turned into a full mod in a few months tops.

Any map that includes new units and/or other things a user might want to turn off, Speedball with minifusion f.e.

As much as I despide the Speed* maps, that's how they were designed and besides, it's a Speed* map, the very concept screws with whatever mod you're playing. (Luckily, I barely see Speed* maps played any more these days.) Why would you want to turn them off, when the map itself provides insane amounts of metal for just one mex, and makes units zip along ridiculously fast? What do minifusions matter on a Speed* map? Why are you even playing a Speed* map if you're concerned about the integrity of the mod you're playing?

My question still stands. Besides the Speed* maps, all you named was a vague concept of "any map that includes new units", that isn't an example. The only time this has ever been an issue, is with DSDS. And yes, Senna does make use of BA's name to attract players to his minimod, so what? Consider it an intelligence test of sorts: if a person plays DSDS and thinks it's BA, they fail it. There are still people who enjoy the map/mod (don't look at me, I've never played it), and I've seen more than one DSDS game at once time on several occasions, so let them I say. Don't make Spring shut down in a panic whenever some map contains custom content; you might block DSDS, but you'd also break a lot of other maps made with good intent, and you're arbitrarily laying down the law to mappers who have nothing to do with DSDS. So Senna hijacked BA: give him a stern talking-to and let him release it as a separate mod. Don't arbitrarily shoot off into a state of indignant frustration and lash out at mappers at large.
edit: And besides, if this is a host option, how exactly will it help in any way, shape or form against DSDS? Do you think Senna or whoever will keep that box ticked when hosting?

I'm going to paraphrase I can't recall who exactly and say: If this concerned any other mod than BA, we wouldn't even know about it. DSDS will be gone in a month or two. Let it be handled by the community, as it should be, not by the engine. Don't introduce a "helpful" "feature" that will inevitably break lots of maps, piss off mappers and cause endless streams of bug reports and questions from people who've never even heard of DSDS.

Or if you do, call it Spring Genuine Advantage.

[Regret]

My question still stands. Besides the Speed* maps, all you named was a vague concept of "any map that includes new units", that isn't an example.

Name one, just one, good example of where this (and the other topic) would be effective, besides DSD Special. Which will have either disappeared into oblivion, or will have turned into a full mod in a few months tops.

I provided exactly what you asked for, a single example of a map where it would be effective at doing what it is meant to do.

I will not continue discussing this feature request anymore as all I wanted is already planned to be implemented in future spring versions.

[SirMaverick]

2. Altering game play and destroying game play are two different things.

What is destroyed gameplay is subjective to the players involved, if a player chooses to disable all air units that is in my opinion destroyed gameplay, for some it can be fun gameplay.

Misunderstanding. I was using following definition: unit limits etc., something that changes game rules, is just altering game play.
Destroy game play (after my definition) means not being able to play anything. Not some kind of change/limitation.

[Strategia]

I provided exactly what you asked for, a single example of a map where it would be effective at doing what it is meant to do.

And I argue that Speed* maps by definition alter gameplay to such a degree that a change such as this would be illogical and pointless. It's designed to be different, people know it's different, and people play it because it's different. What does it matter if some features of the map are turned off? Besides, there are so many variations floating around, there's bound to be one that doesn't have these features. No-one would mess around with host options that might or might not work and might cause a variety of exotic errors if they can just use another variant without those features.

You provided an example, not a good example.

I will not continue discussing this feature request anymore as all I wanted is already planned to be implemented in future spring versions.

It is?

[lurker]

Regret said he'll be happy once it's fixed so that mods are fully in control of LuaRules and maps are fully in control of LuaGaia.

[CarRepairer]

And yes, Senna does make use of BA's name to attract players to his minimod, so what? Consider it an intelligence test of sorts: if a person plays DSDS and thinks it's BA, they fail it.

Spring is not an intelligence test, it's a game. Even if it were, your test is what fails. The word "special" is not taught in schoolbooks to be "maps that alter mods." Someone isn't unintelligent because they can't/won't unzip a map file to inspect its contents before every game. Nor are they unintelligent because they are new to spring and don't know that maps can contain units when it's more reasonable to assume maps are maps and mods contain units.

so what?

I repeat:
1. Players who wanted to play BA are tricked and their time is wasted - players burned.
2. New players who don't know BA yet wanted to play BA and now falsely think this is BA, which causes confusion and is a misrepresentation of BA - players and mod makers burned.
3. It's wrong to use someone else's popular name to promote your own product as though it's theirs, not revealing it until the game actually starts - no one directly burned, but this is still not okay.

Edit: In case you missed it, I stated my opinion that if Senna had put any indication at all in the map description that it contains his mod, I would have no problem with it because I wouldn't consider it deceit, and the above points are not valid in this case. I hardly care about flags and checkboxes at this point, only honesty.

[smoth]

I thought what he did was kinda neat and people are over reacting. either this is one of the greatest trollings in all of spring(props) or people are over reacting.

[Strategia]

Spring is not an intelligence test, it's a game. Even if it were, your test is what fails. The word "special" is not taught in schoolbooks to be "maps that alter mods." Someone isn't unintelligent because they can't/won't unzip a map file to inspect its contents before every game. Nor are they unintelligent because they are new to spring and don't know that maps can contain units when it's more reasonable to assume maps are maps and mods contain units.

And all it takes is one more game or even just a few lines of chat in #main and they'll know they haven't played BA. Besides, there are generally around a dozen or more BA games at any one time, while I've never seen more than two DSDS games at the same time. The chances of a new player playing DSDS first is minimal at best, and even then it only takes them a very short while to find out the truth.

1. Players who wanted to play BA are tricked and their time is wasted - players burned.
2. New players who don't know BA yet wanted to play BA and now falsely think this is BA, which causes confusion and is a misrepresentation of BA - players and mod makers burned.
3. It's wrong to use someone else's popular name to promote your own product as though it's theirs, not revealing it until the game actually starts - no one directly burned, but this is still not okay.

1.) Assuming that there's nothing whatsoever they want to play besides BA. Besides, time wasted? Between loading the game, finding out it's different and quitting there's hardly more than a few minutes. I wouldn't call that time wasted. Tricked, OK, but not time wasted. And like I said before, there's no reason they wouldn't enjoy it.
2.) See reply to previous quote.
3.) I do agree with you on this point. But like I and others have said earlier, it's a community problem, let the community handle it. Give Senna a stern talking-to by a couple mods (or an angry mob) and force him to release it as a separate mod, or just ban DSDS from jobjol and the downloader and maybe ban Senna as well if he tries to bring it back.

[Nemo]

I don't really see the issue with what's going on here. What are maps if not a particular implementation of a mod's gameplay? As long as there's some notice to the user that the map is disabling/overriding some/all of the mod's lua, it shouldn't matter a bit. If it does stupid stuff to the mod, people won't play it. If people play it, obviously the mapper/mini-modder got something right (which is no different from making your own mutator of an established mod...)

[CarRepairer]

I don't really see the issue with what's going on here.

As long as there's some notice to the user that the map is disabling/overriding some/all of the mod's lua,