Mod / Map separation

[zwzsg]

I answered that already. Making a mod that disregard map and replace it by its own would serve to prove the point, relevant to discussion, that mods change change maps as well, yet I hope no one would dare suggest we amputate mods out of their .lua.

[lurker]

There was such a setting, but I don't remember if it was script or local

[Regret]

I answered that already. Making a mod that disregard map and replace it by its own would serve to prove the point, relevant to discussion, that mods change change maps as well, yet I hope no one would dare suggest we amputate mods out of their .lua.

No matter how hard you try currently files inside a mapfile take precedence over files inside a modfile.

Offering an option for the user to turn on/off is not destroying anything. Just clarifies what is already happening.

[SirMaverick]

There was no damage made to anyone's work. TheFatControler gave Senna the rights to apply the changes. The only critical thing was, that these changes were not mentioned/visible to the end user before the game started.
Disabling something without the acknowledgment of the creator is damaging work - like this feature would do.

From what I understand TFC gave senna a go to make a separate mod called Advanced BA, not to do what he did. I may be wrong but DSD special is only used as an example here and it is not the point of this discussion to argue about who gave a right to who about it.

This feature does still change the mappers creation without acknowledgment.
If a mappers creation does change the mod without acknowledgment than this can be punished in other ways if needed.

[SirMaverick]

Offering an option for the user to turn on/off is not destroying anything.

It can destroy the game play.

Just clarifies what is already happening.

There is no need for an option to disable/give preference to something.
When you want to clarify something, then just inform the user about a change.

[lurker]

No matter how hard you try currently files inside a mapfile take precedence over files inside a modfile.

So? Let's take again the very invasive example of DSD Special. Without the ability to override files, how much of that is blocked? Probably about 5% with the standard methods, and 0% if you're clever about it.

[Gota]

I don't get it...
The only person who cared about this DSD issue was Regret...
All vet players knew what it meant and noobs don't even care..They can't tell the difference anyway...
Whats with all the fuss about this.
IMO adding even more options is retarded...This is not a good reason to make even more customizations to confuse players.

Aside form this logical argument i also want to add that I luled at Regret asking not to troll and restrain ourselves.Just so funny...

I really hope nobody will go to all the trouble to make this just cause Regret is having a BA fanboi tantrum.

If this was any other mod he wouldn't say a thing.

[Strategia]

Name one, just one, good example of where this (and the other topic) would be effective, besides DSD Special. Which will have either disappeared into oblivion, or will have turned into a full mod in a few months tops.

[Regret]

This feature does still change the mappers creation without acknowledgment.
If a mappers creation does change the mod without acknowledgment than this can be punished in other ways if needed.

Setting the level of detail in your settings changes it too, turning off lua shaders disabled snow effect on some maps f.e., that does not mean you should unable to do so.

There is no need to punish anyone, the point is to provide the user with a clear indicator of what he is playing instead of limiting of what mappers/game makers can develop. Providing an option for the user to turn off does not limit anyone.

There is no need for an option to disable/give preference to something.
When you want to clarify something, then just inform the user about a change

The user relying on the mapper to inform about the change is insufficient since the mapper can lie about it and then DSD Special happens. That's why it is needed.

It can destroy the game play.

So can any other gameplay affecting option already available. Should you be disallowed from affecting the start resources or disabling units?

So? Let's take again the very invasive example of DSD Special. Without the ability to override files, how much of that is blocked? Probably about 5% with the standard methods, and 0% if you're clever about it.

The tickbox proposed would disable all map included content entirely:

Flag to disable map lua, disable overriding of modfiles by mapfiles and disable download files/folder being loaded from map.

Ability to set the flag as a modoption.

[Regret]

I don't get it...
The only person who cared about this DSD issue was Regret...
All vet players knew what it meant and noobs don't even care..They can't tell the difference anyway...
Whats with all the fuss about this.
IMO adding even more options is retarded...This is not a good reason to make even more customizations to confuse players.

Aside form this logical argument i also want to add that I luled at Regret asking not to troll and restrain ourselves.Just so funny...

I really hope nobody will go to all the trouble to make this just cause Regret is having a BA fanboi tantrum.

If this was any other mod he wouldn't say a thing.

Please do not post trolling comments. It will only get deleted/moved by a moderator again. This thread is not about me but about a feature. If you have a problem with me use the PMs.

Name one, just one, good example of where this (and the other topic) would be effective, besides DSD Special. Which will have either disappeared into oblivion, or will have turned into a full mod in a few months tops.

Any map that includes new units and/or other things a user might want to turn off, Speedball with minifusion f.e.

[SirMaverick]

This feature does still change the mappers creation without acknowledgment.
If a mappers creation does change the mod without acknowledgment than this can be punished in other ways if needed.

Setting the level of detail in your settings changes it too, turning off lua shaders disabled snow effect on some maps f.e., that does not mean you should unable to do so.

These settings do not change the rules of the game, just the graphical representation. (Can be hardware problem too, my Geforce3 does not support all options.)

There is no need to punish anyone, the point is to provide the user with a clear indicator of what he is playing instead of limiting of what mappers/game makers can develop. Providing an option for the user to turn off does not limit anyone.

These are too different things: (1) information that the map changes something and (2) ability to disable that. Just providing the second one does not inform the user about anything. On regular maps this wont affect anything. Not using the option on maps with mods included does not inform the user.

When you want to clarify something, then just inform the user about a change

The user relying on the mapper to inform about the change is insufficient since the mapper can lie about it and then DSD Special happens. That's why it is needed.

That is partially a social problem. There are no technically solutions to solve social problems, it needs human intervention. Once a map was releases with sexual content, it has been banned pretty fast.
If the mapper lies, we can ban his maps or force him to give proper description. An option to disable something does not change the fact, that the mapper is not telling what the total content of the map archive is.

It can destroy the game play.

So can any other gameplay affecting option already available. Should you be disallowed from affecting the start resources or disabling units?

1. Engine restrictions anybody (mapper, modder, player) has to live with.
2. Altering game play and destroying game play are two different things.

[Regret]

1. Engine restrictions anybody (mapper, modder, player) has to live with.

They are not restrictions but features just as a tickbox to toggle map content is a feature.

2. Altering game play and destroying game play are two different things.

What is destroyed gameplay is subjective to the players involved, if a player chooses to disable all air units that is in my opinion destroyed gameplay, for some it can be fun gameplay.

[lurker]

So? Let's take again the very invasive example of DSD Special. Without the ability to override files, how much of that is blocked? Probably about 5% with the standard methods, and 0% if you're clever about it.

The tickbox proposed would disable all map included content entirely:

Flag to disable map lua, disable overriding of modfiles by mapfiles and disable download files/folder being loaded from map.

Ability to set the flag as a modoption.

Yes it would. I was responding to you saying that maps are in control right now. They are not. My point is that the option you propose would turn it from a relatively balanced environment to one where maps are treated as inferior to mods.

[Google_Frog]

2. Altering game play and destroying game play are two different things.

It might alter play for one game but destroy it for another.

[Regret]

maps are treated as inferior to mods.

Maps are made for games. Not games for maps. There is a hierarchy here (or logically should be).

[Otherside]

maps are treated as inferior to mods.

Maps are made for games. Not games for maps. There is a hierarchy here (or logically should be).

hierarchy's should not be forced. Spring is an open source engine

and maybe one day someone makes a novelty map that might have games made specifically for it or variants of mods just for the map you never know it might happen.

So following a set hierachy is a fail excuse.

[Regret]

hierarchy's should not be forced. Spring is an open source engine

and maybe one day someone makes a novelty map that might have games made specifically for it or variants of mods just for the map you never know it might happen.

So following a set hierachy is a fail excuse.

Hierarchy is currently forced since mapfiles take priority over modfiles. The flag proposed would let the developer decide which hierarchy he wants to use and/or if he wants to allow the users to decide.

[lurker]

Listen, if you disagree with me on this point then respond to it:
Map files overriding doesn't matter, they don't need it, you could have mod files override and nothing would change, maps could still do what they want.

[imbaczek]

conclusion 1: changing anything in the current system may/will result in gadget wars, fighting over what can be done in frame 0/1/n.
conclusion 2: want to make a mod which a map can't interfere with, make your own gadget which filters allowed units according to your whitelist in frame 0/1/n and hope for the best.

that said, i don't know if what i say is possible, my synced lua-fu is weak.

[lurker]

It's already a gadget wars situation, but somehow people are civil and not fighting.