Mod / Map separation

[Google_Frog]

Every single term needs to be learnt, jargon or otherwise. I think the keyword 'special' is less clear than a mod option with a short explanation under the mod options tab.

Anyway I don't think this thread should be about the deceit involved in obscure map naming, there's already a thread for that. This thread should be for requesting a little tick box in the lobby called "use map special stuff".

[smoth]

Every single term needs to be learnt, jargon or otherwise. I think the keyword 'special' is less clear than a mod option with a short explanation under the mod options tab.

Anyway I don't think this thread should be about the deceit involved in obscure map naming, there's already a thread for that. This thread should be for requesting a little tick box in the lobby called "use map special stuff".

MAP OPTIONS
MAP OPTIONS
MAP OPTIONS
MAP OPTIONS

[SirMaverick]

@Google_Frog
100% ack

This thread should be for requesting a little tick box in the lobby called "use map special stuff".

MAP OPTIONS

This needs cooperation from the map maker. Image *special stuff*(not yet clearly defined) put into a map without any map option to en- or disable this. You only have the choice to play the map with special stuff or no to play the map at all.
This feature request is about another choice: letting the player decide to play the map without the special stuff even if the map maker is not cooperative.

[smoth]

This needs cooperation from the map maker.

yes, yes it does.

Image *special stuff*(not yet clearly defined) put into a map without any map option to en- or disable this.

so you are butthurt over the mapper choosing to impliment a feature you don't like? How dare that dastardly mapper!

You only have the choice to play the map with special stuff or no to play the map at all.

Yeah, it is a bitch isn't it, someone makes a map with odd features and if you don't like it you don't play it!

This feature request is about another choice: letting the player decide to play the map without the special stuff even if the map maker is not cooperative.

this is a feature request to compromise the vision of a mapper to shoehorn what you want.

[Regret]

this is a feature request to compromise the vision of a mapper to shoehorn what you want.

Yes. Some people don't care what the mapper intended and just want to use the heightmap. Just as people disable units in games that they don't like. It worked out fine for starcraft, there is no reason it will not work out for Spring.

[Otherside]

delta siege dry.smf

[smoth]

this is a feature request to compromise the vision of a mapper to shoehorn what you want.

Yes. Some people don't care what the mapper intended and just want to use the heightmap. Just as people disable units in games that they don't like. It worked out fine for starcraft, there is no reason it will not work out for Spring.

then extract the heightmap.

[Otherside]

SME can extract height maps and theres a lua widget that does it to.

[Regret]

then extract the heightmap.

Unnecessary and unreasonable hassle.

[lurker]

Do keep in mind that you can't make derivative maps if you're denied permission.

[Otherside]

i hardly see different versions of map as unreasonable or a hassle.

map makers are free to do what they want with there maps if they dont wish to release a Feature/modification free version of there map or make a Dry version or whatever they dont have to. Map makers arent obliged to bend over backwards for the playerbase they may choose to do so to please players or to get there map played but they dont have to.

+ its not exactly like spring has a map shortage.

just play something else.

[Regret]

i hardly see different versions of map as unreasonable or a hassle.

map makers are free to do what they want with there maps if they dont wish to release a Feature/modification free version of there map or make a Dry version or whatever they dont have to. Map makers arent obliged to bend over backwards for the playerbase they may choose to do so to please players or to get there map played but they dont have to.

+ its not exactly like spring has a map shortage.

just play something else.

It makes no sense having to create a whole new map to disallow the map from overriding the game you're playing.

The concept that maps can without any question whatsoever completely override the entire game on which they are hosted is flawed. There has to be a way to limit what is loaded from the maps else there is no difference between a map and a game.

PS: You already presented the 'solution' that we should 'play something else' in this thread before, and in another thread too. This is not a solution, it is ignoring the present problem.

[smoth]

You are making this fuss because you don't like what a mapper did and you want to override his/her decisions. I am 100% against this. The mappers spend a lot of time on their respective works, you can at least respect their wishes on the map.

If a mapper doesn't design his map in a way that your pet project likes you want to break the map to make it compatible. Is there even a map that does that? dsd special is a varient of dsd so you cannot say that it is the reason for this thread.

[CarRepairer]

"Play another map" offers no solution to the fact that anyone can put content in maps and trick people into playing it when 99.99% of people will not know that there can be content in maps. These people are not idiots just because they don't know that an entire game can be put into a map. These people are end users - players with just enough knowledge to know that there are games and maps.

If this scenario didn't actually occur then this issue wouldn't have even come up on the radar, but it happened. That is why there needs to be a solution to indicate to the player that maps can have content and the game you think you're playing (such as BA) might not be what you're about to play. This is about the players, not the map makers or the modders.

You are making this fuss because you don't like what a mapper did and you want to override his/her decisions. I am 100% against this. The mappers spend a lot of time on their respective works, you can at least respect their wishes on the map.

This goes both ways. And if you look at my feature suggestion in this thread, I made it fair by requesting checkboxes that allow a player to choose map's contents or mod's contents. I am taking no sides at this point. The only side I'm taking is to protect the integrity of the developer of any content from having it misrepresented (which in general means a player will assume he's playing a mod when he's playing content on a map, but all I asked is that there is an indication of what is being played so no one is misrepresented).

This all boils down to making spring a better experience for the user (player) and this is a flaw. Put yourselves in the shoes of someone who has no idea of the underlying technical aspects of spring. It's very difficult after being here for years, but try it.

[Otherside]

and you think one unobvious check box is going to solve the problem??

the ammount of people unaware of mod options / map options is huge.

Might aswell start removing CA mod options because they give an unfair representation of the mod.

What about if people played every CA game with Concept Lab on.

Go remove the mod options id be so happy :]

Really those things are way worse than a map option as they dont just apply to one map they can apply to all maps.

But thats another issue entirely so ill stop derailing

[smoth]

"Play another map" offers no solution to the fact that anyone can put content in maps and trick people into playing it when 99.99% of people will not know that there can be content in maps. These people are not idiots just because they don't know that an entire game can be put into a map. These people are end users - players with just enough knowledge to know that there are games and maps.

Umm he did it with dsd and it had to be renamed in order to have it not cause desyncs.. oh gawd the sky is falling. DSD is still there, ba is fine. this is stupid.

If this scenario didn't actually occur then this issue wouldn't have even come up on the radar, but it happened. That is why there needs to be a solution to indicate to the player that maps can have content and the game you think you're playing (such as BA) might not be what you're about to play. This is about the players, not the map makers or the modders.

so because one guy is pulling bullshit you want to complicate the games in spring FURTHER!?! Yes less add more checkboxes to further bewilder users.

[Regret]

You are making this fuss because you don't like what a mapper did and you want to override his/her decisions. I am 100% against this. The mappers spend a lot of time on their respective works, you can at least respect their wishes on the map.

This is not about agreement or disagreement, it is about a implementing a purely logical mechanism to clearly define what game you are playing.

If a mapper doesn't design his map in a way that your pet project likes you want to break the map to make it compatible. Is there even a map that does that? dsd special is a varient of dsd so you cannot say that it is the reason for this thread.

A mapper designs a map, he does not design the game. You completely misunderstand the purpose of this feature. It is to clearly identify when a map overrides your game files to avoid confusion.

DSD special is a perfect example of why this feature is needed. It is not just a map, it contains ALL the game files required for a game, you could host it with any game at all and it would still be a different game than you chosen.

This is not to disrespect mappers decisions about his map, this is to prevent stealing reputation of other games by including your game inside a map.

Can you think of a better way to prevent such abuse than to offer a simple "use map settings" tickbox in lobbies? It does not limit anyone and still provides transparency about what you are actually playing.

[Pxtl]

Well, modoptions are a separate problem - they're not shown by the lobby in the list of games, which would be helpful for games with a lot of mod-options.

I don't know that there's a good solution, but the problem is that DSD Special is blatantly dishonest, and would likely crash if executed by a non-TA mod, I bet.

[smoth]

This is not about agreement or disagreement, it is about a implementing a purely logical mechanism to clearly define what game you are playing.

that exists, it happens when you select the mod. This map would not override gundam.

A mapper designs a map, he does not design the game. You completely misunderstand the purpose of this feature. It is to clearly identify when a map overrides your game files to avoid confusion.

ok so in order to do anything you want players to HAVE TO enable it? yeah I am against that.

DSD special is a perfect example of why this feature is needed. It is not just a map, it contains ALL the game files required for a game, you could host it with any game at all and it would still be a different game than you chosen.

Not really, if I download it and play gundam I am willing to bet it doesn't override gundam

This is not to disrespect mappers decisions about his map, this is to prevent stealing reputation of other games by including your game inside a map.

*raises eyebrow*

Can you think of a better way to prevent such abuse than to offer a simple "use map settings" tickbox in lobbies? It does not limit anyone and still provides transparency about what you are actually playing.

yeah and when users do not click it and shit breaks in other projects. Seriously, I don't think you are thinking it through.

[SirMaverick]

"Play another map" offers no solution to the fact that anyone can put content in maps and trick people into playing it when 99.99% of people will not know that there can be content in maps.[...]

That is why there needs to be a solution to indicate to the player that maps can have content and the game you think you're playing (such as BA) might not be what you're about to play. This is about the players, not the map makers or the modders.

I agree. Here a new, simpler solution:
Just an indicator, that the maps adds stuff/changes gameplay. So everyone is informed, that it might not be 100% the mod they play. (Lobby should place it, where everyone reads it - add "with mod changes" to map name?)
Everybody is informed what he plays. Everybody can do what he wants (players and devs). Nobody is forced to do anything they might not want (play with mod changes). Nobody's creation is changed without notice.

You are making this fuss because you don't like what a mapper did and you want to override his/her decisions. I am 100% against this. The mappers spend a lot of time on their respective works, you can at least respect their wishes on the map.

This goes both ways. And if you look at my feature suggestion in this thread, I made it fair by requesting checkboxes that allow a player to choose map's contents or mod's contents. I am taking no sides at this point. The only side I'm taking is to protect the integrity of the developer of any content from having it misrepresented (which in general means a player will assume he's playing a mod when he's playing content on a map, but all I asked is that there is an indication of what is being played so no one is misrepresented).

I'm protecting all 3 sides: mod devs, map devs and the end user: the player.