The economics of Spring mod users

[Argh]

Ok, maybe I'm just plain wrong, then.

So... why do we need hole-punching and port forwarding, then? I certainly agree with Smoth, this is one aspect of Spring that is a fairly serious issue, in terms of acceptance and usability.

[el_matarife]

Okay I've been running around a lot for the past 36 hours and haven't really been able to post in this thread much.

Conclusions I've been drawing from this thread:

1. It seems fairly obvious that BA needs its own standalone installer designed to make the newbie experience as painless as possible. This installer would include good documentation, several of the most popular maps as long as they aren't too large to download easily, and a very polished lobby version. Once this installer is out, we can use it to start attracting and retaining newbies to the Spring community. Once the newbies are here, then other mods will prosper too from the exposure and larger player base.

2. Spring is still really newbie unfriendly. The lobby clients aren't as polished as they need to be and don't have enough newbie tutorial information. The harsh skill curve results in newbies getting slaughtered in many games. We may need a good matchmaking system for new players, or perhaps a LUA based single player tutorial map.

3. Port forwarding and hosting games is confusing to people. Perhaps the lobby clients / server just need to "figure out" whether hole punching is necessary or not? Or we could link to http://portforward.com/ with the UDP port Spring needs open to help people figure out how to forward their ports? Maybe there's another technical solution like deploying STUN protocol on the lobby server?

Our first objective should be simplifying the newbie experience and retaining all the people who download Spring then quit. Once that's done, I think the time will come for an advertising push.

[smoth]

correct. Ba installer is really not a concern as one person can probably do it in a short time span, but ease of install and ease of use are definitely going to help all people.

[Regret]

The hostile nature of "getting Spring to work" is a great filter of players. Only the smarter ones will handle it. Problem with benefits?

[smoth]

lol regret, not really, look at #main, full of idiots..

[Regret]

I wrote smarter, not smart.

[el_matarife]

Satirik has agreed to include an HTML tutorial for new players in TASClient, on a popup when they run TASClient for the first time, and in the help menu. Now we all just need to get together and draft an acceptable newbie guide.

I'm guessing it would cover hosting games, joining games, how the ranking system works, where to get help, one paragraph descriptions with a screen shot or two of all the mods (contributed by the mods so there's no controversy), and maybe a few other items. This should probably have a thread of its own but I am not sure which forum. Maybe development? I'm guessing we need something similar for SpringLobby too, but at least we can reuse some of the content in both.

[Gedanken]

Tbh, downloading and installing Spring is no harder than installing some graphics drivers or something. A standalone BA installer is a brilliant idea, though I can't see it being popular with advocates of other mods.

On the other hand, getting maps and hosting a game requires quite a bit of determination, but I think there are things you have to expect your new user to be able to do. I remember years ago having to install DoD and I would have to get out my game discs, download around five or six hefty patches (over a fucking modem) and install all of that before setting up and finally playing over a dubious connection. Considering CS was like the biggest game ever or something and DoD was pretty popular, that is quite a lot to have to go through to play a game and arguably a much larger time commitment.

3. Port forwarding and hosting games is confusing to people. Perhaps the lobby clients / server just need to "figure out" whether hole punching is necessary or not? Or we could link to http://portforward.com/ with the UDP port Spring needs open to help people figure out how to forward their ports? Maybe there's another technical solution like deploying STUN protocol on the lobby server?

If the lobby explicitly stated that you have to forward your ports, it would be a good thing. STUN or UPnP could both be solutions, though they both have their own problems and would likely have to be represented as another option rather than as a fix-all.

[zwzsg]

Now we all just need to get together and draft an acceptable newbie guide.

What? Something that anyone can actually do, instead of ranting that the dev don't deliver our wishes? You must be crazy!

This should probably have a thread of its own but I am not sure which forum. Maybe development?

Now you're getting reasonable. Yes, let's have a forum thread about how we should edit the wiki.

[Argh]

Um, such a proposed redistribution of the Spring engine with non-GPL source code would be a direct violation of the GPL, and the rights of Infogrames.

Use S'44 instead. It's polished enough, and it's free and fits the parameters for IP-free, GPL-friendly and being a good RTS.

Or talk to Fanger / Decimator about E&E. I don't think Fanger will put the content under PD / GPL, but that's OK, so long as he'll let you redistribute it.

That would kick ass, if somebody maybe worked on the effects and stuff for a week.

[smokingwreckage]

I strongly suggest that the easy, newbie-attracting version NOT contain big, glaring IP violations, and as such, as much as I love TA mods, it should not be a TA mod.

[zwzsg]

A couple version ago, the installer had some tickbox to install map packs, and to install mods. This was very good, and a shame it's gone.

The only problem there was that it wasn't maintained enough. Having to remove version number from mod filename, and remaking the installer only at new engine release, was a bad move. But as long as we have a non-lazy person to maintain the installer, updating mods every time there's a release, or at least once a week, it would be like perfect. I'd even volunteer to be the Keeper of the Installer. Is the system to download files from mirrors still in place?

[Gedanken]

A couple version ago, the installer had some tickbox to install map packs, and to install mods. This was very good, and a shame it's gone.

I agree with this and this is what I meant by modifying Spring Downloader. Do you think it could be set up so that it essentially did the same thing? Spring Downloader can do everything an installer application is capable of (afaik), it can even modify the registry and I am sure it could create a program group and desktop shortcut too with minor modifications.

The scenario is:

1 New user downloads Spring Downloader from bittorrent, fileshack, here or wherever.

2 Spring Downloader checks if it is the latest version, auto-updates if not.

3 Spring Downloader unpacks latest Spring, modifies registry as needed and adds desktop shortcuts.

4 Spring Downloader installs whatever is perceived to be the most newbie-friendly lobby at the time of installation.

5 Spring Downloader asks if you want to download the most popular maps; downloads most popular maps.

6 Spring Downloader asks what mod you want to install.

Imo that is a pretty good way to go, because it eliminates the need for going here there and everywhere just to get the files needed to play any Spring game. It also eliminates the obsolescence problem. Does anyone think this wouldn't work?

tldr: Spring Downloader is an awesome tool and I think with some modifications it could become a very good way of getting Spring to new users. It is one tool to give users access to everything in Spring

[smoth]

you assume that springdownloader would have all the files for the projects. There would need to be a way to register and pull files to maintain release versions and not have 1k version floating around. Also there would need to be a way to keep people from hijacking projects or putting bad files up.

[TheFatController]

By the way before someone runs out and makes a halfarsed BA installer it's already in the works.

[el_matarife]

tldr: Spring Downloader is an awesome tool and I think with some modifications it could become a very good way of getting Spring to new users. It is one tool to give users access to everything in Spring

I do think you're on to something with this. If you look at it almost as a Steam style system for getting, installing, and updating Spring + mods + maps + Lua it would work pretty well. I just have no idea how technically feasible it may be. It would also only work on Windows, though it may not need cross platform support.

I think we could satisfy Smoth's concerns by letting projects create accounts and upload their own files with descriptions and screenshots. The CA module for SpringDownloader can automatically remove old versions or keep a project up to date, if a generic version is written that would automatically work for all "Projects" uploaded to the server.

[Licho]

It should be pretty easy to let downloader handle new mods or to make mod-speicific versions of downloader.
Only problem might be installing/managing engine.
I would first like support for multiple engine version in the lobby.

[monkerl]

Hey guys you just need to show this game to your friends and be persistent...
I got 3 friends converted to spring, one was a hardcore WoW gamer the other one CS1.6 and the 3rd was not playing anything but TMN.
Two of them already surpassed me in ingame time and rank :/
At first we only played Speedmetal, cause it wasn't so complicated to get up some eco, but after a while they realized how awesome spring was and they stuck to it.
Some other friends play with us on Lan-partys sometimes and i know that at least two of them showed this game to their friends.

I just wanted to say get your friends playing and if you are persistent enough and teach them, they might attract more of their friends.

[Gota]

People here don't have RL friends,maybe that is spring's problem.
People,go out,make some friends and convert them to Spring.

[AF]

Is that what they are? I was wondering who those people who pester me when I don't come here were

Players shouldn't download the spring installer. Its aimed at developers, and we shouldn't muddy our water trying to caster it to both.

Im also against downloading map packs through the isntaller, if your adding maps, bundle them in the installer so we dont mislead users over the size of installers, or leave them downloading the installer, taking it to a machine with no Internets and then getting uber pissed off that they cant install.