I'm just wondering if the LOS overlay feature (currently the only way to see the area that's visible by radar or whatever.) Can also include rendering unit/object shadows? I really like seeing shadows on stuff.. But that all goes away with the overlay.
And if someone feels like either A) not doing that or B) doing it and also doing this, I'd also enjoy that too:
Make a Lobby feature tag Like "Limit D-Gun" or "Diminishing Metal Maker Returns".. I'd like a "Disable LOS" feature like OTA had. Then I could look at the game in it's original colors without having to be all disturbed by enemy armies coming out of no where constantly. Plus No LOS is really good for quick games against people/bots. Also good for teaching someone how to run a base when they're sparing off against you. Anyway, I'm just revisiting this request. I hope that these aren't too hard to implement into the game.
LOS overlay is disabling unit shadows...
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
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I agree that the means of presenting LOS in Spring is lacking. Games are confusing where the whole map appears to be visible, but really only a small region can be seen by your troops. It looks quite odd when units are appearing from nowhere.
The "LOS" function does not update quick enough, and looks rather ugly for it to be used with any permanence.
I realise that this is likely to do with CPU issues, but I think one way of dealing with the problem is as follows:
Artificially extend the view radius of all units by 1/4th to 1/6th. Then, within that extra view radius, allow all the units who are seen to be "filtered in" slowly. That way units are not just popping out of thin air.
Either keep their textures presented as greyscale at the edge of LOS (as TA did - well, it overlayed a grey filter), or do a cooler fading in of units as they move into your full LOS.
The "LOS" function does not update quick enough, and looks rather ugly for it to be used with any permanence.
I realise that this is likely to do with CPU issues, but I think one way of dealing with the problem is as follows:
Artificially extend the view radius of all units by 1/4th to 1/6th. Then, within that extra view radius, allow all the units who are seen to be "filtered in" slowly. That way units are not just popping out of thin air.
Either keep their textures presented as greyscale at the edge of LOS (as TA did - well, it overlayed a grey filter), or do a cooler fading in of units as they move into your full LOS.
That's a good idea. It's increasingly ridiculous that units still have their 'five square' view radius, even on perfectly flat maps. Perhaps the 'fuzzy' LOS area could be quite long, to allow a K-bot to spot the HUGE PLASMA CANNON on the TOP OF A MOUNTAIN even when it's outside the view range?
If a button could be implemented to display the sensor network on the minimap, that would solve the LOS problems. Just show the outer line of all radars, adjusted for terrain interference. That would provide all the information needed, and for fixed radars it wouldn't even need frequent updating.
If a button could be implemented to display the sensor network on the minimap, that would solve the LOS problems. Just show the outer line of all radars, adjusted for terrain interference. That would provide all the information needed, and for fixed radars it wouldn't even need frequent updating.
That raises a very interesting concept for LOS: changing it from a distance, to what size a unit has to be for your units to see it. it'd be likePnakotus wrote:That's a good idea. It's increasingly ridiculous that units still have their 'five square' view radius, even on perfectly flat maps. Perhaps the 'fuzzy' LOS area could be quite long, to allow a K-bot to spot the HUGE PLASMA CANNON on the TOP OF A MOUNTAIN even when it's outside the view range?
LOS=(unit-los-constant)(size of target's collision sphere)/(distance to target)
if the LOS value is over a certain number, you see the target, if not, you don't.
Higher LOS simply means your units can pick out enemies while they're smaller from you units' perspective. It could be like the resolution of their optics.
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GrOuNd_ZeRo
- Posts: 1370
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This is a great idea. The 'five square' thing was fine in top-down TA, but now that we can swing the camera around it's balls that you fly past a ridge in full view of your base and suddenly see the Vulcan up there.FizWizz wrote: That raises a very interesting concept for LOS: changing it from a distance, to what size a unit has to be for your units to see it. it'd be like
LOS=(unit-los-constant)(size of target's collision sphere)/(distance to target)
if the LOS value is over a certain number, you see the target, if not, you don't.
Higher LOS simply means your units can pick out enemies while they're smaller from you units' perspective. It could be like the resolution of their optics.
How distinct is the 'visible' and 'detected by radar' code?
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CaptainMaim
- Posts: 265
- Joined: 04 Sep 2005, 01:25
I so totally agree... When I started playing Spring, since I use the FPS camera mode (holding down middle click and swinging the camera around to tower over the battle field all at once.) I was originally very bothered that I could see much more than my units. (Even though I was very familure with the whole TA LOS concept.)This is a great idea. The 'five square' thing was fine in top-down TA, but now that we can swing the camera around it's balls that you fly past a ridge in full view of your base and suddenly see the Vulcan up there.
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Here's another solution that drives off in an entirely different direction... What if we use REAL line of sight? Radar in real life isn't as affected by landscape as visual light, it's range dims but isn't dead stopped like it is in Spring. Radar in the real world is just a microwave flashlight that pans around (metal to microwaves = a mirror, and hence why metal things show up as they reflect that light were as other things don't. Water absorbs microwaves and gets hot but that doesn't matter here.)
My point is, why not just make the LOS based on what the units actually can see at their FPS mode height? And calculate that radially? Radar penetrates dirt, and stuff and that can be limited by the dirt hardness, so core Prime's ground would actually reflect the radar back. So it's still useful, but I mean with a real LOS you shouldn't be seeing units behind walls. Nor should you see an object that's completely occluded by another object.
The normal LOS becomes affected by landscape and unit possition, taller units see further (duh)... Planes however, would have a very large LOS...
Grrr.... Course, also real LOS also cares about which way something's facing... So jets flying around in a circle would be panning past the landscape. Units would of course then have only 90 degree vision arcs centered on which way they're facing. (Not legs but gun turrets probably.)
Anyway, that's just my thought... Probably a bit much, but who knows, might be a cool auxillary feature to have real LOS in addition to traditional TA style or RTS styled LOS.
hoho.
I dont think you know your radars, CaptainMaim.
There is quite some reason why the big strategic radars were build on hilltops, because for all things to care of, radar waves are LOS concerning terrain. A hill WILL shadow the area behind it.
And also consider that radar doesnt work by showing just the reflection, usually.
At least military targeting radar and aircraft radar also works by comparing phase shift of the reflected waves to automatically sort out all unmoving objects (because hills have MUCH larger radar signitures that helicopters, for example. They just interfere the reflected signals with a reference beam, eleminating non-doppler shifted parts of the signal.)
I dont think you know your radars, CaptainMaim.
There is quite some reason why the big strategic radars were build on hilltops, because for all things to care of, radar waves are LOS concerning terrain. A hill WILL shadow the area behind it.
And also consider that radar doesnt work by showing just the reflection, usually.
At least military targeting radar and aircraft radar also works by comparing phase shift of the reflected waves to automatically sort out all unmoving objects (because hills have MUCH larger radar signitures that helicopters, for example. They just interfere the reflected signals with a reference beam, eleminating non-doppler shifted parts of the signal.)
As Noize points out, any vaguely realistic system of detection would be utterly non-TA. We should be thankful they don't make us uncover the terrain of the map like many RTSs! :)
However, Spring is about a 3d engine, and it IS ridiculous to be unable to see something that the player can establish - in real time, by moving the camera - is clearly in view. Alternate 'sighting' methods could be considered for less 'traditional' games made with the engine.
However, Spring is about a 3d engine, and it IS ridiculous to be unable to see something that the player can establish - in real time, by moving the camera - is clearly in view. Alternate 'sighting' methods could be considered for less 'traditional' games made with the engine.
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CaptainMaim
- Posts: 265
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I stand corrected... Thank you IMSabbel, I find that bit of info to be most fascinating.
I know radio waves penetrate but I also know they don't use them for radars. I guessed at the hills, in interest of gameplay. I also know they use radar to penetrate ground, or at least to the ground, when they do satalite surveys of Earth and other planets like Venus. (They found an under the desert inland sea under the sahara that way. But then sand is a lot less dence than dirt.) Non-Doppler shifted? Hmmm... Does that mean if a tank stands still the radar can't see him? (And yes I'm seriously asking cause that sounds interesting.)
Pnakotus: I also agree.. I was just spit balling an idea I didn't think anyone would dare speak. I'm not attatched to it. The fading in units might look cool... Heck I'd like it if all the units that I saw were ghosted, not just the buildings. (It's nice to have visual reference of "What was that thing I just saw back there?" Or "Count the Krogoths" without having to actually get your scout to live long. But... Then again, maybe it's a good thing that it doesn't do that... I dunno.
I know radio waves penetrate but I also know they don't use them for radars. I guessed at the hills, in interest of gameplay. I also know they use radar to penetrate ground, or at least to the ground, when they do satalite surveys of Earth and other planets like Venus. (They found an under the desert inland sea under the sahara that way. But then sand is a lot less dence than dirt.) Non-Doppler shifted? Hmmm... Does that mean if a tank stands still the radar can't see him? (And yes I'm seriously asking cause that sounds interesting.)
Pnakotus: I also agree.. I was just spit balling an idea I didn't think anyone would dare speak. I'm not attatched to it. The fading in units might look cool... Heck I'd like it if all the units that I saw were ghosted, not just the buildings. (It's nice to have visual reference of "What was that thing I just saw back there?" Or "Count the Krogoths" without having to actually get your scout to live long. But... Then again, maybe it's a good thing that it doesn't do that... I dunno.
The approach I'd take would be to have the units be replaced with an unskinned, semitransparent team-coloured version of themselves after they've been IDed and remain on radar. So after your peeper makes the red-team goli on a flyover, it's radar icon is a red glass effigy of a goli trundling along on the landscape - but if radar goes down for a minute, it reverts to it's red-dot form.CaptainMaim wrote:I stand corrected... Thank you IMSabbel, I find that bit of info to be most fascinating.
I know radio waves penetrate but I also know they don't use them for radars. I guessed at the hills, in interest of gameplay. I also know they use radar to penetrate ground, or at least to the ground, when they do satalite surveys of Earth and other planets like Venus. (They found an under the desert inland sea under the sahara that way. But then sand is a lot less dence than dirt.) Non-Doppler shifted? Hmmm... Does that mean if a tank stands still the radar can't see him? (And yes I'm seriously asking cause that sounds interesting.)
Pnakotus: I also agree.. I was just spit balling an idea I didn't think anyone would dare speak. I'm not attatched to it. The fading in units might look cool... Heck I'd like it if all the units that I saw were ghosted, not just the buildings. (It's nice to have visual reference of "What was that thing I just saw back there?" Or "Count the Krogoths" without having to actually get your scout to live long. But... Then again, maybe it's a good thing that it doesn't do that... I dunno.
Still, if there was a method for neatly graphically representing LOS limiting in a 3d environ, it would've been done already. Alternately, one could just dodge the whole issue and make a mod balanced for playing "open hand" - that is, no radar, no jammers - you can see everything on the map all the time.
If you just want a little graphical sexiness, you could have more fun with the graphics for units being "discovered" - the red radar dot fades into the red glass effigy, which in turn fades into the unit itself as it moves into view range. All the while, a little anime-style exclamation mark blinks over the head of the unit doing the spotting. But that would be tacky (and cute).
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
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CaptainMaim
- Posts: 265
- Joined: 04 Sep 2005, 01:25
I'd love to have the "Open Hand" thing... I'm sure it wouldn't tax system requirements that much, Just type ".spectator" and you see everything anyway, you just can't interact.
At the very least, it'd be nice to fight the AI (who, I'm largely sure isn't going to deceive me) coming from a mile away. Any serious game I'd say LOS on, but playing a just-for-fun game where it's not a competition, I just think it'd be nice. (And though I know saying this won't change a darn thing, but...) I've found that when goofing off and running through a maze in FPS mode, it's kinda disturbing to just see an enemy appear out of no where in front of me. And without having to setup some elaborate network of cameras or spies, I'd much rather just have the option, just the option of turning LOS off once in a while. For whatever reason. (Testing, stupid fun games. Or perhaps so I don't have to explain radar to a noob, and I can just train someone in basic game mechanics without having to baby them through everything [also seeing what they're doing without having to get up or cheat or infiltrate them is also terribly nice for teaching purposes.])
I like the whole effigy thing, and I'd be plenty happy with that idea. And it seems reasonable to lose that effigy if the unit wanders off radar for even a moment. Course wouldn't it wiggle around with the radar dot that it's now representing? Unless it doesn't replace it like the effigy of buildings and simply sits independantly of it. It might also give the player an easier way to hit the units... But then I always thought it a bit funny that LOS targeting accuracy instantly went away the moment direct LOS was lost. (I watched the targeted point move from the unit/building to the area next to him the instant I lost sight of the unit/building.)
At the very least, it'd be nice to fight the AI (who, I'm largely sure isn't going to deceive me) coming from a mile away. Any serious game I'd say LOS on, but playing a just-for-fun game where it's not a competition, I just think it'd be nice. (And though I know saying this won't change a darn thing, but...) I've found that when goofing off and running through a maze in FPS mode, it's kinda disturbing to just see an enemy appear out of no where in front of me. And without having to setup some elaborate network of cameras or spies, I'd much rather just have the option, just the option of turning LOS off once in a while. For whatever reason. (Testing, stupid fun games. Or perhaps so I don't have to explain radar to a noob, and I can just train someone in basic game mechanics without having to baby them through everything [also seeing what they're doing without having to get up or cheat or infiltrate them is also terribly nice for teaching purposes.])
I like the whole effigy thing, and I'd be plenty happy with that idea. And it seems reasonable to lose that effigy if the unit wanders off radar for even a moment. Course wouldn't it wiggle around with the radar dot that it's now representing? Unless it doesn't replace it like the effigy of buildings and simply sits independantly of it. It might also give the player an easier way to hit the units... But then I always thought it a bit funny that LOS targeting accuracy instantly went away the moment direct LOS was lost. (I watched the targeted point move from the unit/building to the area next to him the instant I lost sight of the unit/building.)