The balance formula thread

[1v0ry_k1ng]

tired forumula is little better than assigning/guessing metal values for units; thats the pre-game testing stage. there is no way it can be used in place of testing

[smoth]

BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT BEARD!?

[Google_Frog]

This theoretical janus would be OP vs everything if it was in CA, which is where the initial stats came from so I'm assuming it's CA. Gota, do you want someone to make a special test version so you can test in 1v1?

BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT BEARD!?

Use the zoom on your web browser.

[aegis]

[smoth]

THAT BEARD IS BALANCED!!

[Gota]

This theoretical janus would be OP vs everything if it was in CA, which is where the initial stats came from so I'm assuming it's CA. Gota, do you want someone to make a special test version so you can test in 1v1?

BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT BEARD!?

Use the zoom on your web browser.

I don't understand what your saying.
Sure,do what you want.
I wont go to any effort to prove anything,since i don't care much if anyone else decided to use tired's equations or not...
I have tried CA's balance so i don't need to prove anything to a CA dev,such as yourself.
What would you want to test?you wanna take an unbalanced mod,CA than take one of its units use tired's equation on it and than see if it is balanced in relation to all other units?What would be the point of that?I can tell you right now it wont.
When i wrote my argument i was assuming he was talking about the Janus in a situation where the formula was applied to an entire mod....That is an OBVIOUS prerequisite.

[Google_Frog]

CA isn't any more unbalanced than SA but for the sake of the argument it doesn't matter if the janus is used in SA or CA. Get the SA Janus and give it 1 hp then increase the range enough to make it still 'balanced'.

[SpliFF]

Ok, since you ingrateful bastards didn't like my last balance method I've come up with a better one. Unlike the pathetic formula that started this thread my formula is always correct. Ready? Here it is:

Any unit or mod is balanced, if and only if, I SAY IT IS. Any mod that I consider unbalanced is thereby and forevermore unbalanced, until I proclaim it otherwise. Any unit or person I deem unbalanced must be destroyed. I am the Lord of Balance! Bow down before me and pray forgiveness for your pathetic attempts at balance!! Beg me to anoint you with my holy essence of balance!! Kill yourself or forever live with the shame that I am totally OP compared to you!!!

I have spoken.

[Argh]

This whole thread is OP. Recommend nerf.

[thesleepless]

what about creating some kind of automated environment that pits units against each other.

eg.
spawn n AKs and n PeeWees and order them to attack each other
whoever has the most left is more powerful so nerf their stats a bit and retry until it's very close.
repeat each test a few times in to be sure it's not just random chance.

[Google_Frog]

what about creating some kind of automated environment that pits units against each other.

eg.
spawn n AKs and n PeeWees and order them to attack each other
whoever has the most left is more powerful so nerf their stats a bit and retry until it's very close.
repeat each test a few times in to be sure it's not just random chance.

Thats a bit better but it needs 2 things:
* The units would have to be microed.
* You'd need to check the outcome of all the battles of every unit vs every other unit to check it's overall effectiveness is.

[Argh]

You'd also need a map that simulates all possible conditions of slope, interactions with water, and height differentials. It would also need to take into account starting unit facing and distance, the impact of the units on your resource base (charted against possible outcomes under ideal conditions, depending on what kind of economy curve is possible vs. rushing a given unit type out in X timeframe), and it would need to test any Lua-based special abilities.

IOW, it's impossible. This is the stupidest thread, ever.

[thesleepless]

Thats a bit better but it needs 2 things:
* The units would have to be microed.
* You'd need to check the outcome of all the battles of every unit vs every other unit to check it's overall effectiveness is.

yeah the microing may be an issue since it can drastically effect the outcome of a battle.
yep, every unit vs every other unit would be cool, it could construct graph showing the effectiveness of units against other units
could probably be done using lua... except i don't think lua can change units stats on the fly can it?

You'd also need a map that simulates all possible conditions of slope, interactions with water, and height differentials. It would also need to take into account starting unit facing and distance, the impact of the units on your resource base, and any Lua-based special abilities.

IOW, it's impossible. This is the stupidest thread, ever.

yes it's definitely impossible to get truely accurate results, and it should be because a units effectiveness SHOULD change depending on how it's used.
but it could be a way to find out some big balancing flaws.
slope is a big issue that is difficult to factor in.

also a change to the algorithm to use the resource cost of the unit.
so if unit A costs half as much resources as unit B, then there'll be twice as many A units than B units spawned.

[Argh]

so if unit A costs half as much resources as unit B, then there'll be twice as many A units than B units spawned.

You're kidding, right?

It's not that simple. If a A costs half B, then A may be built and in your base before B is even finished, depending on the costs of A and B.

Or building B too early may stall you.

Or building A may stall you, because the buildtime's low, but resource cost is high.

Or A may cost additional resources after being built, that make its real cost-over-time unfeasible until C is built.

Or...

This whole thread is a demonstration that some people prefer the illusion that math can solve anything. It's not possible, people. There are real limits, unless you like playing games with extremely simplistic game designs. Even StarCraft, using a far more simple heightmap concept and far fewer units than my game, let alone OTA, is still being balanced. And that's not because the guys at Blizzard are lousy mathematicians.

[KDR_11k]

Math balancing is a piece of stupidity born from the TA school of unit design where everything is just another box with different numbers. Math balancing is always quantitative. It fails to account for qualitative differences (like when one of the boxes is a freezer box) that are rare in TA but common in most other game designs. When a unit has something like a special ability you can't do anything but assign an arbitrary value to that because it's not scalable and not present on other units.

[KingRaptor]

This whole thread is OP. Recommend nerf.

You're just jealous 'cos my walls of text are better than yours.


Related: Here's an old Argh essay on balance; it's a fairly interesting alternative perspective that discusses issues of perception and probability in game balancing.

what about creating some kind of automated environment that pits units against each other.

eg.
spawn n AKs and n PeeWees and order them to attack each other
whoever has the most left is more powerful so nerf their stats a bit and retry until it's very close.
repeat each test a few times in to be sure it's not just random chance.

Aside from all the problems Google Frog and Argh already pointed out - which stats would the program nerf, and why?

[Sleksa]

I think people should have some perception of competitive rts play before discussing anything related to balance, let alone
~Balance through maths and formulas~

[SpliFF]

This whole thread is OP. Recommend nerf.

You're just jealous 'cos my walls of text are better than yours.

Smart move genius! As if Argh actually needs to be goaded into an essay writing contest. I don't think my eyeballs can handle the strain!

[Llamadeus]

I think people should have some perception of competitive rts play before discussing anything related to balance, let alone
~Balance through maths and formulas~

Please, this is Spring we're talking about.

[SpliFF]

Can your balance formula explain this?