Dune....? - Page 2

Dune....?

Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.

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rattle
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Re: Dune....?

Post by rattle »

Emperor was the worst title in the Dune series, IMO. Never liked that game except for the worms.
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KDR_11k
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Re: Dune....?

Post by KDR_11k »

Pxtl wrote:
little dave wrote:In the Butlarian Jihad the holtsmen effect (the fancy name for the sheilds pretty much) is explaned alittle better, since the creator of the sheilds (and most of the other technology in the dune universe) is one of the main characters. There is a part were a sheild is struck with a las gun. The effect is essentialy a nuke.
Those books did not happen. Not Frank Herbert = not Dune.
smoth wrote:
Pressure Line wrote:yes, lasgun/sheild interations create a nukesized explosion.
that is soo silly I would las from orbit.
iirc, it creates it at the firing point as well as the target - the effect feeds back up the laser beam.

Which just means you use a suicide troop to do it alone in the middle of the desert, or a primitive computer (no advanced computers allowed), or something like that.
Can't you just toss a lasgun with a timer out of a spaceship so that it will be lined up with the target shield when the timer expires? Or maybe stick a lasgun into a misile chassis and have it fire on impact? Hell, the missile would even account for any variable explosion size issues, you fire it at whatever you want to destroy, if the explosion is small the target is still destroyed, if it explodes bigger it's a nice bonus. Then again nuclear weapons are present in Dune and only MAD is keeping them at bay...
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Pxtl
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Re: Dune....?

Post by Pxtl »

iirc, deliberately causing a lasgun feedback was viewed by the lansraad as the same as using nuclear weapons - the whole universe would come down on you like a ton of bricks for it.
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thesleepless
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Re: Dune....?

Post by thesleepless »

no, from what i recall of reading the book last year, the harkonnen used lasguns against dune when they were attacking the dispersed artriedes, the artriedes had hidden shields in the ground or something so to cause the nuke effect, this quickly put a stop to their use of lasguns.
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rattle
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Re: Dune....?

Post by rattle »

Can't you just stick a shield generator and a lasgun on a missile and use it as nuke, if the effect is that devastating?
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KaiserJ
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Re: Dune....?

Post by KaiserJ »

fear my baron harkonnen spam!
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yuritch
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Re: Dune....?

Post by yuritch »

rattle wrote:Emperor was the worst title in the Dune series, IMO. Never liked that game except for the worms.
I found Emperor to contain more 'interesting' units than previous games. As in units that don't just rely on weapons to kill the enemy, but do something else to that end. AFAIR previous Dunes only had the Deviator doing this.
A prime example imo is the Ixian Projector Tank. I'm not sure if it even has a weapon or not, that's really not important. It makes holocopies of any unit, friend or foe, which you can control. The copies can attack normally as the copied unit can, doing full damage, but they die from the first shell that hits them. So you can build (or even just scout one the enemy built) a powerful unit and make a clone army of it in just a few seconds, without spending a single credit on that save the Projector Tank cost! (very OP unit imo). It can even copy the copies, so if you lose sight of the original unit, you can still maintain your phantom forces.
erasmus
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Re: Dune....?

Post by erasmus »

There are so-called "family atomics" stockpiles of nuclear weapons in the dune universe, the thing is that the use is only for MAD-type situations as any family which decides to use them will be wiped out by the Landsraad.
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Fanger
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Re: Dune....?

Post by Fanger »

You cant just fly around shooting lasguns from orbit and tossing lasgun trapped shield bombs at everyone from space because the Spacing Guild had an absolute Monopoly on interplanetary space travel. So unless you payed them a SHIT TON of money they wouldnt move your shit anywhere, and they absolutely werent going to do jack shit with your ships if you intended to use them to orbitally bombard stuff cause that might get them shot at. So you could not actually conduct space combat or orbital bombardment because then the guild would stop transporting your crap and you would literally lose all your logistics.

Also if you will recall in order to invade Dune the harkonennens had to pay the guild quite alot in order to transport all their troops to the planet it, it wasnt just for anyone to just up and start fighting.

Yes the lasgun and shield would cause a feedback loop that would result in a nuclear fission type explosion across both ends. However Herbert never goes into the specific specifications of Lasguns, so there is really never any mention of their varying sizes, and ranges, as far as we know they are all mostly man portable.

You are all also correct, shields have rendered all projectile weaponry useless, so things like tanks, and artillery and so forth are all pretty much no longer produced in any form anywhere. also they dont use computers of any real complexity. All of this combines to form a highly ritualized society with a very specific set way of fighting which is mostly a hand to hand with little to no actual ranged combat. However very little combat takes place because the political atmosphere is such that society is divided into the Great Houses, and the Emperor, the emperor has the resources and forces to easily crush any great house. The great houses if they unified could theoretically crush the emperor (IF they unified) However to do any of this they need the spacing guild to move their forces. So this 3 way political atmosphere creates for the most part peace, only political subterfuge and the so called war of assassins goes on really.

TLDR:

Dune based on the books DOES NOT MAKE A GOOD GAME SO STOP TRYING

Dune based on some bullshit version of it made up by westwood IS simply a stupid C&C remake with the word DUNE stapled over the title... It has nothing to do with dune.. so why call it that.. MAKE UP YOUR OWN FICTIONAL SHIT TO MAKE AN RTS ABOUT YOU WANKERS...
little dave
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Re: Dune....?

Post by little dave »

Fanger wrote:You are all also correct, shields have rendered all projectile weaponry useless, so things like tanks, and artillery and so forth are all pretty much no longer produced in any form anywhere.[/b]
The only exeption is on Dune because of the effect the shields have on the worms. Unless you are suicidal you don't use them. You will attract sandworms from all over to yourself.

I do agree with what you said about some of these things Fanger, I am not trying to lessen the books at all. I did not like Emperer of Dune much either. Not just cause of the things that were made up and so on but also cause of the game play it just kinda sucked...

I do beleive there is some mention in "Dune" about some artillery the harkkonens were using though... If I remember correctly a fremen is talking about taking it from them for future use against the harkkonen.

Dune is also very air controlled as well. Ornithopters and Carry-alls and so on.

The guild definately has their hands in alot and restrict things to their benifit and discretion. At least up until Muad'dib takes cotrol a bit more.
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Fanger
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Re: Dune....?

Post by Fanger »

They used artillery after taking down the house shield in the Atreides home city on Arrakis. The Atreides forces retreated into caves and the harkonnens used artillery to cause the entrances to collaps sealing in the Atreides forces. It was rather unexpected and the baron admits it would not likely work under other circumstances.

Additionally later in the first book, after paul blows a hole through the shield wall and the storm spills in shorting out the shields on the emperors space craft, the fremen use rockets to destroy their guidence systems.. However these are both unique cases. You couldnt use artillery or tanks out on dune, because of the storms and sand worms..
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SinbadEV
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Re: Dune....?

Post by SinbadEV »

I say if you are going to make a RTS based on the Dune universe you just take an awful lot of liberties, imagine what types of battles MIGHT happen on the surface of a valuable and dangerous desert planet and fill in the necessary infrastructure and unit types... basically do what the people who made all those other Dune games did... Yeah you would need thopters and worms, and fremen and shadukhar and bene gezerits and thlelaxu and Harvesters and Shields and Moisture harvesters... but take whatever liberties you need to make a good game... might be worth it to entirely dispense of the Dune name and just say it's "Inspired by Dune"...

Anyways, a good game could be made but it couldn't be set in cannon and limited only to those things mentioned in the books.
fischkopf01
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Re: Dune....?

Post by fischkopf01 »

Can't you just stick a shield generator and a lasgun on a missile and use it as nuke, if the effect is that devastating?
isnt there a battle in book 5 or 6 in that miles teg uses antigrav platforms with a lasgun and a shield on it as pseudo nukes against the military of the honored matres when he defends a bene geserit planet?

i cant remember exactly... need to read books 5-6 agin....
little dave
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Re: Dune....?

Post by little dave »

I am reading 5 right now I will let you know if that ever happens or not.
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Fanger
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Re: Dune....?

Post by Fanger »

SinbadEV wrote:I say if you are going to make a RTS based on the Dune universe you just take an awful lot of liberties, imagine what types of battles MIGHT happen on the surface of a valuable and dangerous desert planet and fill in the necessary infrastructure and unit types... basically do what the people who made all those other Dune games did... Yeah you would need thopters and worms, and fremen and shadukhar and bene gezerits and thlelaxu and Harvesters and Shields and Moisture harvesters... but take whatever liberties you need to make a good game... might be worth it to entirely dispense of the Dune name and just say it's "Inspired by Dune"...

Anyways, a good game could be made but it couldn't be set in cannon and limited only to those things mentioned in the books.
What is the point of this.. If you have to take liberties with a universe to make it work as a game. THEN WHY USE THAT UNIVERSE.. make up a new one, one that you dont have to take liberties with in order to fit into your C&C style mode RTS with sides consisting of: Light tank, medium Tank, Helicopter and other shit.. I mean come on.. LETS BE CREATIVE..
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Pxtl
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Re: Dune....?

Post by Pxtl »

To be fair, Dune 2 does predate the C&C series, so really it's the otherway around - they were shoehorning modern warfare into their Dune game.

But yes, I agree. Plus, I have to say that it's kind of sad to see developers dumping their heart and soul into art that somebody else claims trademarks to, meaning they will never really, truly own their own work. No offense, Smoth.

At the very least, pick something that's public domain. Jules Verne themed RTS, anyone? H.G. Wells? Oz? Animal Farm is public domain in some countries - that would be a fun theme for an RTS.
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bobthedinosaur
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Re: Dune....?

Post by bobthedinosaur »

sure.. how about a bugs bunny rts...

by being an unlicensed non profit mod i think they would be just fine using concepts from the books/ other video games
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Pressure Line
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Re: Dune....?

Post by Pressure Line »

Pxtl wrote:But yes, I agree. Plus, I have to say that it's kind of sad to see developers dumping their heart and soul into art that somebody else claims trademarks to, meaning they will never really, truly own their own work. No offense, Smoth.
That's a *very* pessimistic view of things :/

Like Fang said, if all you are going to do is lift the things you like from an established universe you may as well say "fuck it, I'll do my own thing." Which is basically what you have to do with Spring and the Dune universe, because tbh... an rts based on subterfuge and treachery (and the odd knife fight) would be boring (something like the Civ games could be fun though). Why not just make some shit up, (or not even bother!) make some models and fire out a game?

This of course does not apply to a universe where the canonicity can be preserved to a large degree and still end up with a decent game (tabletop games, historical time periods) but its still easier to just make your own shit up. that way you dont get rabid fans (because we all know that anything that might be covered under the 'rule of cool' is gonna have a few unless its unbelievably obscure) nitpicking ever departure from the accepted canon, and you can just do what feels right.

/rant, cant even tl:dr because i forgot what the point i was trying to make was x:
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RogerN
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Re: Dune....?

Post by RogerN »

Here are some unit ideas to get you started:

1) Guys with knives
2) Really talented guys with knives
3) Sandworms, which have knives for teeth. Seriously.
4) Duncan Idaho, gets reborn every time he dies
5) Civilians. They don't fight, but they breed like rabbits and eventually morph into guys with knives.
6) Spacing Guild Representative. Creates an no-combat zone in his proximity, but uses up all spice production in the same area
7) Bene Gesserit Witch. Converts enemy units into your own! Unless they're deaf.
8] Deaf guys with knives. Because otherwise #7 would be pointless.
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bobthedinosaur
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Re: Dune....?

Post by bobthedinosaur »

do you own a lot of knives?
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