[old] Balanced Annihilation V6.81

[Gota]

ha??its not balanced for 1v1 games....that's why you don't see 80% of all units in 1v1s...

Well I don't know who from WarC kept telling this and I'm currently not up for looking up the BA topics to give you a quote. It's not the first time though that people come up with "issues" from their teamgame experience and often the answer was that BA's main focus lies on 1on1 games and not teamgames...

If it was balanced for 1v1s there shouldn't be tier 2 and tier 3 than.

[[Krogoth86]]

Look at my edit I just did...

EDIT:
Taken from HERE so you know where it's from...

[Gota]

so what?obviously the mod was balanced for tema games because that's where u see all the units in 1v1s u see t2 in 1 of 100 games.

[[Krogoth86]]

If you refuse to believe then fine - do so...
Your argumentation does have no real point though as the 3 tiers simply come from Absolute Annihilation and the balance towards 1on1s also explains why T3 is the most certainly "less balanced" area in BA and you've seen the most "intense" changes here (e.g. what was done to the Juggernaut, Bantha/Krog getting amphibic and imo still the imbalance between Razoback & Karganeth)...

[1v0ry_k1ng]

I do remember before ak self damage that I occasionally saw players spawning large hordes of aks and running through defenses with them. i.e. 2 factories each guarded with 4 nanos and ak on repeat. I remember getting pwned badly by this.

Since this change I've never seen this done.

that could be because few high end players use kbots unless the map forces them now, or it could be because the chainexploding makes them useless in groups of 10 or more?

jeez, look at the stats ginekog posted up. AK uses 1200E, gator uses 1700E. Ak is half scout, its E cost really shouldnt be that high bearing its combat abilities in mind. likewise, it takes 3AK to match a gator, but 3 AK take 3600 buildtime, vs gator 1700- so a kbot player needs what, 2x the build power and 2.5x the energy to produce aks at the same metal/tick as gators.

[Jazcash]

BasiC. Take all the T2 and T3 units out of SA and I give you cookie.

[Gota]

If you refuse to believe then fine - do so...
Your argumentation does have no real point though as the 3 tiers simply come from Absolute Annihilation and the balance towards 1on1s also explains why T3 is the most certainly "less balanced" area in BA and you've seen the most "intense" changes here (e.g. what was done to the Juggernaut, Bantha/Krog getting amphibic and imo still the imbalance between Razoback & Karganeth)...

What you don't understand is that I'm talking about how it is not what was or wasn't said.

[pintle]

So are kbots ever gonna get anywhere close to being balanced? I mean I appreciate the irony of the mod name and all...

[TheFatController]

So are kbots ever gonna get anywhere close to being balanced? I mean I appreciate the irony of the mod name and all...

They are being looked at (not for 6.82), they are 90% fine in my opinion but do need some touches to make them more viable - the kbot lab should never just be a vehicle lab with different models like some people seem to want.

[Pxtl]

To me, the weird part with balancing the kbots is differentiating the Hammer from the Warrior. Unless you make a drastic change to the Hammer, it will still end up just being half a warrior with slightly better range. They move the same speed, have similar armor and damage per cost, etc. I mean, laser falloff makes the Hammer look a little better since the Warrior is shorter ranged, but still there isn't that much difference there.

This is why I like the CA approach of (on the Arm side only) converting the Hammer into a light artillery/fire-support bot. Something like a cheap, inaccurate Morty that can take on an HLT if it has an elevation advantage and can also be useful in large-scale combat as fire-support.

And bring back the Immolator with a similar weapon (priced so you can put one up quickly outside of the enemy's defenses), so Core doesn't get left out, and keep the Thud as an assault kbot.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

They are being looked at (not for 6.82), they are 90% fine in my opinion but do need some touches to make them more viable - the kbot lab should never just be a vehicle lab with different models like some people seem to want.

how are they 90% fine?
I mean, the kbot con is way crapper
the ak/pw e-cost and BT is astranomical
the hammer/thud is relatively useless
arm has the flea and warrior which have their uses, but a core player? heck, its just 1 ak:5 storms on repeat once the initial aks are out
factor in the vehicle labs acsess to specialty units (riot, missle trucks, jeffy, artillery) and that it can build anphibs, anphib con units that can climb hills and hence negative the kbot con advantage.
Its not really fine. its not gamebreaking because everyone goes vehicle as long as the map allows but as a lab kbots are very weak and inflexible.

and im relatively sure that slow, lower hp, more numerous, all terrain kbots that rely on rezbots will never play like flash micro, stumpy spam, missle truck lines, janus and compush etc etc etc; its not a justification for their weakness.

[TheFatController]

Looking at workertime on the con (and possibly the t1 lab for that matter) and making thuds/hammers viable was what I had in mind.

Amphib vehicle cons are a problem as lots of beaches use kbot slopes, there could possibly be some kind of crazy lua/cob script developed where the unit did something like deployed special wheels only when it was ordered to move into or out of the water and couldn't otherwise climb hills, but this would not be ideal :p

Warrior is a headache, if core had a new kbot (not the outlaw :p) these could be balanced better and allow for more roles without making only arm OP'd.

[Hacked]

core doesnt have a warrior equivelent, but arm doesnt have many of core's t3 units or access to mobile unit producers.

[imbaczek]

comparing t3 with t1 is comparing apples to doorframes. don't do that.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

there was a t1 core unit on unit universe- The Mug - it was basiclly a mini core can. that'd fit the role of laser equiped, slow, anti raider

compare AK and weasel E-costs and B-time. the AK is a fusion between gator and weasel roles, its E-cost to metal cost ratio should be somewhere inbetween rather than much higher imo

[Pxtl]

core doesnt have a warrior equivelent, but arm doesnt have many of core's t3 units or access to mobile unit producers.

Originally, it was 2 special L1 units for each - Arm had the Flea and the Warrior, and Core got the Leveller and the Immolator (short-ranged plasma-cannon turret). Since then, Arm has gotten more L1 units, and Core lost the Immolator. It would be nice to bring back the Immolator- although it isn't a kbot, a defense other than the Guardian that can take advantage of the HeightMod (and thus get a range-boost from being placed on high ground) would be particularly useful to kbots (since, obviously, they're more able to reach the high ground).

Speaking of heightmod, do Arm EMGs get heightmod range boosts?

edit: If the amphicon is a problem, perhaps the amphicon should be moved to L2? Or left in the amphib-lab only?

[YokoZar]

I mean, the kbot con is way crapper

I'm not sure about that. kbot lab and con cost substantially less than their vehicle equivalents but have the same worker time - that makes them better as econ units. In fact, if your base is relatively confined (such as playing the safe spot in a big team game), then kbots are a superior choice for getting econ or rushing t2.

[MR.D]

Immolator was a very short range Impulse cannon, similar to what we have now with the Leveler, and it was in the CORE Commander's build menu since CC and TA 3.1 as a balance against Flashtank swarms.

And I'm pretty sure that the Leveler was a flame thrower tank in TA.. or maybe I'm still thinking of Uberhack..

[1v0ry_k1ng]

The cost diffrence between kbot and vehicle con is negliable
the vehicle con has more armour, creates more energy, is faster, allowing for faster expansion and safe reclaiming.
the kbot lab costs less metal but because the units cost alot more energy: per tick of metal that extra metal ends up going on energy economy and/or e-storage

[YokoZar]

The cost diffrence between kbot and vehicle con is negliable
the vehicle con has more armour, creates more energy, is faster, allowing for faster expansion and safe reclaiming.
the kbot lab costs less metal but because the units cost alot more energy: per tick of metal that extra metal ends up going on energy economy and/or e-storage

Construction vehicles are 20% more expensive than construction kbots. To put that in perspective, you can have a kbot lab and 7 con kbots for the same price (and build time) as a vehicle lab and 5 construction vehicles.

The one equivalent thing is the innate resources produced: at the end of it the 5 vehicles will be making 50 energy and .5 metal from being alive (not a trivial amount), however the 7 kbots will be making 49 energy and .49 metal. The 7 kbots, however, will have 40% more build power, and since some came out earlier than the vehicles there will be a bit of compound interest.