It's an Uberhack thing - SAM units are SAM-specific, not just a damage-buff vs. air. In OTA, SAM units were good all-around units - their range and ability to shoot air made up for their weaker firepower. In BA, the only such multifunction missile unit is the SAM truck, which is very weak since it also doubles as a spotter-unit and super-early artillery (it has long sight-range and firing-range).
As for "kbots suck", that's because kbots are special-purpose in BA - they're for hilly maps. BA was disappointed nobody was playing vehicles, so he buffed all their speeds, which allows them to easily get into firing range very quickly and thus superior on most flat maps. A good kbot player can start with kbots on a vehicle map for access to the L1 rezbots, but he will be at a substantial mobility disadvantage. On flat land, vehicles have an edge. On other terrain, vehicles are unusable.
Jethros are always kind of a lost orphan unit because most players that want L1 air defense will build MTs, which are dirt-cheap... although I've had fun with Jethros dodging bombs.
[old] Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Moderator: Content Developer
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Meh... I only posted because I'm tired of reading the whining, after almost 3 years of it. As I said, I usually never post here, I find the discussion about what's OP this week incredibly boring, considering it's always guys trying to get NOiZE to help them get their special strat working just right 
And, yeah, it's a fundamental change, to fix a fundamental problem. That's game design.
Caydr screwed up a lot. I didn't like BSR's balance to begin with, and Caydr added a bunch of crap to it, and kept emphasizing the stuff BSR did. I followed AA long enough to see where it was going, and totally lost interest. Sorry, the only major mod I ever liked for OTA was TAUCP, because it was craaaaaazy. Not balanced. Just silly fun.
Those screwups aren't a sacred cow, and this old-skool player thinks that this particular screwup is easy to fix, but involves pretty important changes, in terms of rush timing. Not giant changes- try a small change in costs for an Air factory, keep pushing it up until it doesn't work to com-nap very easily. Make it possible, if you're Regret and that's your schtick (I assume, Regret, you can tell us +/- to the second on timing, on DSD or Tabula). I don't really have any problem with that- it's his rush strat, I'm sure he'd adjust unless it was utterly made impossible.
But it's basic math, people. Raising the build-time on an Atlas won't do it, unless it's so significant that that, too, is a fundamental change. It's just how it goes, with something where it's not just a unit buff / nerf. The Atlas's abilities are very fundamental. You could fix it with a Gadget, but then the tactic is gone, not just balanced better.
Changing the speed / hitpoints / etc. on an Atlas won't matter, it already dies if you have AA up, and I don't need to play to know that, everybody agrees on that. The issue is that people can get AA up or have a front, by the time you arrive, and since Jethroes no longer work like they did in OTA, you can't go KBot and pwn guys like you in midair or take your com out if you're not very, very good.
This whole tactic was pretty darn rare in OTA, because several L1 kbots and vehicles outranged the com and could kill it pretty easily if micro'd. It should be, too, since it's a game-winning strat if you pull it off, unlike com-pushing, which can go either way.
Since it isn't... fix it. Then I don't have to listen to whiners, and we're back to com-pushing / d-gun snapshot whining, which is ... eh... like a sweet background hum, after all these years
And, yeah, it's a fundamental change, to fix a fundamental problem. That's game design.
Caydr screwed up a lot. I didn't like BSR's balance to begin with, and Caydr added a bunch of crap to it, and kept emphasizing the stuff BSR did. I followed AA long enough to see where it was going, and totally lost interest. Sorry, the only major mod I ever liked for OTA was TAUCP, because it was craaaaaazy. Not balanced. Just silly fun.
Those screwups aren't a sacred cow, and this old-skool player thinks that this particular screwup is easy to fix, but involves pretty important changes, in terms of rush timing. Not giant changes- try a small change in costs for an Air factory, keep pushing it up until it doesn't work to com-nap very easily. Make it possible, if you're Regret and that's your schtick (I assume, Regret, you can tell us +/- to the second on timing, on DSD or Tabula). I don't really have any problem with that- it's his rush strat, I'm sure he'd adjust unless it was utterly made impossible.
But it's basic math, people. Raising the build-time on an Atlas won't do it, unless it's so significant that that, too, is a fundamental change. It's just how it goes, with something where it's not just a unit buff / nerf. The Atlas's abilities are very fundamental. You could fix it with a Gadget, but then the tactic is gone, not just balanced better.
Changing the speed / hitpoints / etc. on an Atlas won't matter, it already dies if you have AA up, and I don't need to play to know that, everybody agrees on that. The issue is that people can get AA up or have a front, by the time you arrive, and since Jethroes no longer work like they did in OTA, you can't go KBot and pwn guys like you in midair or take your com out if you're not very, very good.
This whole tactic was pretty darn rare in OTA, because several L1 kbots and vehicles outranged the com and could kill it pretty easily if micro'd. It should be, too, since it's a game-winning strat if you pull it off, unlike com-pushing, which can go either way.
Since it isn't... fix it. Then I don't have to listen to whiners, and we're back to com-pushing / d-gun snapshot whining, which is ... eh... like a sweet background hum, after all these years
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Making air tier cost more = less fighters for me to deal with, it is not that hard to realize.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
I have yet to read about fighters being the primary way to stop that strat. Is that how it's supposed to work, supposedly?
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Fighters are the only thing besides long range aa defenses that make it really hard to screw around with commnapping/dropping/bombing.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Sounds broken, tbh. I take it that the cheap cloak for the com lets you breeze in, so the Defenders are pretty pointless? I mean... otherwise, just buff Defender range a teensy bit more, so the Atlas has to stay out've range and your com has a walk, raise cost on air fac, done, they can defend with local forces and you're not just going to pwn them unless they suck or you're really on it (which is always fine with me).
Or... something. You guys are the experts. I guess that mainly, I'd just like y'all to fix this, it's obviously a big problem for people or they wouldn't cry so much. You don't get people crying about nukes or whatever, if they die that way, they know they deserved it. This is a bit different, it's rush strat with no good counters, unless they're mind-readers (or know they're playing Regret). Might want to fix that.
Or... something. You guys are the experts. I guess that mainly, I'd just like y'all to fix this, it's obviously a big problem for people or they wouldn't cry so much. You don't get people crying about nukes or whatever, if they die that way, they know they deserved it. This is a bit different, it's rush strat with no good counters, unless they're mind-readers (or know they're playing Regret). Might want to fix that.
Last edited by Argh on 02 Feb 2009, 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Please just try playing the game before trying to give suggestions any further.
Comm cloak has no effect on airtransport that is carrying the comm. A walking cloaked comm costs 1000e a second, which is a lot even late game.
Comm cloak has no effect on airtransport that is carrying the comm. A walking cloaked comm costs 1000e a second, which is a lot even late game.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Sorry, I thought somebody said it was 75. Didn't bother to check
I'm perfectly aware that cloak doesn't cloak transports. At any rate, if the transport's not cloaked, com isn't cloaked, then it's still a timing issue... well, that, or they suck. Which is it? Do they have any static defense which will kill that com every time they're placed logically, that they can have up before you arrive? Because they can't always keep mobile units around, in MP team games. So it's not really fair to say, "I went Air, you didn't, you lose", because that may not be a valid choice for them. If they have no chance to kill your com, then it's a rush strat with no realistic counter, which isn't cool.
I mean... what happens, if you try this in a 1v1 against somebody decent? Do they just ignore you, kill your base, then come kill you, like they would in OTA?
I'm perfectly aware that cloak doesn't cloak transports. At any rate, if the transport's not cloaked, com isn't cloaked, then it's still a timing issue... well, that, or they suck. Which is it? Do they have any static defense which will kill that com every time they're placed logically, that they can have up before you arrive? Because they can't always keep mobile units around, in MP team games. So it's not really fair to say, "I went Air, you didn't, you lose", because that may not be a valid choice for them. If they have no chance to kill your com, then it's a rush strat with no realistic counter, which isn't cool.
I mean... what happens, if you try this in a 1v1 against somebody decent? Do they just ignore you, kill your base, then come kill you, like they would in OTA?
Last edited by Argh on 02 Feb 2009, 17:00, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Finally you're beginning to see the problem.Argh wrote:they suck
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
I'd love to agree with you, but you aren't the only guy who used this tactic so often that people bitched and moaned. You're like... meh, I dunno, the tenth? And when people say that a rush strat's a game-ender and has no counter... and when you say that the only counter is to directly match you on timing, which means both go Air immediately, in a big game where you aren't the front line... uh... that's not suck, that's bad balance. What's the guy putting out junk on the front line supposed to do, eh? Hope his buddies went Air, to save his ass? Seems... a little preposterous. If they can't build a turret or a set of units that will meet you and have a chance, then they don't really have a counter, imo. Other players don't count.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
I dont see a problem with comnaping /bombing. I agree however it takes some skill to prevent it or use it in a smart way for yourself.
Late game only noobs dont cloack com for 75e, its so easy.
Yes it all makes game a bit harder but its also fun to have all those options to play with.
Late game only noobs dont cloack com for 75e, its so easy.
Yes it all makes game a bit harder but its also fun to have all those options to play with.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Play. The. Game. Please.Argh wrote:I'd love to agree with you, but you aren't the only guy who used this tactic so often that people bitched and moaned. You're like... meh, I dunno, the tenth? And when people say that a rush strat's a game-ender and has no counter... and when you say that the only counter is to directly match you on timing, which means both go Air immediately, in a big game where you aren't the front line... uh... that's not suck, that's bad balance. What's the guy putting out junk on the front line supposed to do, eh? Hope his buddies went Air, to save his ass? Seems... a little preposterous. If they can't build a turret or a set of units that will meet you and have a chance, then they don't really have a counter, imo. Other players don't count.
Making 2-3 aa missile towers early will keep me out for until I make t2 air transports. By the time I have t2 air you should have a fighter screen up anyway else it's your teams fault. on dsd 10 t1 fighters would prevent me from 'rushing' in.
You keep saying to fix something which isn't broken. Just because I can pull it off doesn't mean it's imbalanced. Anyone that practiced something enough can come up with a seemingly unbeatable strategy. People whine about losing to superior players all the time and then blame it on the game rather than their lack of skill.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Ok, fair enough, I can't judge without playing it more than 10 minutes to do some testing, and I don't like it enough to do that much.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Comm cloak is 100e if immobile (which, imho, is pretty expensive early-game, but fine late-game) and 1000e if moving (which is expensive any way you slice it). Cloaked comm is not jammed - you need a jammer to do that.
And don't say "it only costs 75" - that 25 you get either way, cloaked or not, so you're 100e behind your enemies and that's the fact.
The thing about the cloaked comm is that it becomes useless. You can't assist, you can't comm-push, you just keep it in cold storage. At that point, the comm is nothing but a 75e burden, except that you can save it for an ace-in-the-hole if you ever need to dgun a mech.
Other than that, it becomes reasonable to wonder if it isn't worth more dead than alive. If you're not playing game-ends, you may as well self-D the thing and eat the metal.
@regret - 2-3 missile towers still won't stop a guy from dropping the comm outside of MT range and dgunning everything, unless the guy spammed out a bunch of LLTs, too and keeps his troops near the home base, and at that point he's already lost the game because he's losing the front lines. Porcing is always fail.
Contrast BA to StarCraft - in StarCraft, there is initially very few options for attacking the enemy - basically rushing visible ground troops is it. As the game goes on, the attack possibilities branch out further, until it becomes impossible to counter every possible avenue of attack and you either have to be very good at spying on your adversaries or kill them first.
In BA, the air-rush means you have a second avenue of rush. Two different approaches to rush, requiring completely different defense investment, at a point when players have very limited resources to spend on defenses and every iota they spend is costing them success in the most critical part of the game... and failing at either of them is effectively an instant game-ender.
And don't say "it only costs 75" - that 25 you get either way, cloaked or not, so you're 100e behind your enemies and that's the fact.
The thing about the cloaked comm is that it becomes useless. You can't assist, you can't comm-push, you just keep it in cold storage. At that point, the comm is nothing but a 75e burden, except that you can save it for an ace-in-the-hole if you ever need to dgun a mech.
Other than that, it becomes reasonable to wonder if it isn't worth more dead than alive. If you're not playing game-ends, you may as well self-D the thing and eat the metal.
@regret - 2-3 missile towers still won't stop a guy from dropping the comm outside of MT range and dgunning everything, unless the guy spammed out a bunch of LLTs, too and keeps his troops near the home base, and at that point he's already lost the game because he's losing the front lines. Porcing is always fail.
Contrast BA to StarCraft - in StarCraft, there is initially very few options for attacking the enemy - basically rushing visible ground troops is it. As the game goes on, the attack possibilities branch out further, until it becomes impossible to counter every possible avenue of attack and you either have to be very good at spying on your adversaries or kill them first.
In BA, the air-rush means you have a second avenue of rush. Two different approaches to rush, requiring completely different defense investment, at a point when players have very limited resources to spend on defenses and every iota they spend is costing them success in the most critical part of the game... and failing at either of them is effectively an instant game-ender.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
I rally hope newbies aren't reading this forum thread and taking notes..
What are you taking about ARGH?
In OTA people rush air and bombers..IN OTA,air is much more powerful than in BA.
Sure BA Static AA is shit except missile towers and maybe kbot AA t1/t2 but comnapping and combombing is so prevalent only because OTA AA,except flaks,shot both ground and air while ba AA only shoots ground thus appearing only after the enemy has air instead of before it.
Missile towers were a common defensive building(a bit too common).
they shot Both air and land units which meant they were everywhere,thus doing any maneuvering around enemy defensive lines with a transport was much harder than in BA...
Noobs make this issue even harder to deal with.
The only reason This com issue is coming up now is cause there are hardly any good players that can actually counter it properly and that's why regret gets all this infamy...
IN OTA rushing air was fine.
Bomber rush was/is very common because all air units can be microed to be very effective.
Air in BA is very hard to play with at start and as a main battleforce since Air cons are so weak in terms of buildpower..
All this silly comments you guys are making (no offense but you don't see me making comments about pure,even though I haven't played a single game of it,and if i do,feel free to point it out) are just a result of a lack of good players in the community...
The less good players the more bad players will be making comment that will be left unanswered and this will leak into balance of future versions..
What are you taking about ARGH?
In OTA people rush air and bombers..IN OTA,air is much more powerful than in BA.
Sure BA Static AA is shit except missile towers and maybe kbot AA t1/t2 but comnapping and combombing is so prevalent only because OTA AA,except flaks,shot both ground and air while ba AA only shoots ground thus appearing only after the enemy has air instead of before it.
Missile towers were a common defensive building(a bit too common).
they shot Both air and land units which meant they were everywhere,thus doing any maneuvering around enemy defensive lines with a transport was much harder than in BA...
Noobs make this issue even harder to deal with.
The only reason This com issue is coming up now is cause there are hardly any good players that can actually counter it properly and that's why regret gets all this infamy...
IN OTA rushing air was fine.
Bomber rush was/is very common because all air units can be microed to be very effective.
Air in BA is very hard to play with at start and as a main battleforce since Air cons are so weak in terms of buildpower..
All this silly comments you guys are making (no offense but you don't see me making comments about pure,even though I haven't played a single game of it,and if i do,feel free to point it out) are just a result of a lack of good players in the community...
The less good players the more bad players will be making comment that will be left unanswered and this will leak into balance of future versions..
Last edited by Gota on 02 Feb 2009, 18:18, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
No shit sherlock, dropping anything outside of AA range is possible. Problem is once comm is on the ground its ridiculously easy to cut him off with either mobile aa or someone making an aa turret between him and his base.Pxtl wrote:regret - 2-3 missile towers still won't stop a guy from dropping the comm outside of MT range
From experience every commdrop is an expected suicide run, if they dont manage to kill my comm it's their fault for being too stupid to make 1-2 aa units after they see me walking from outside of their aa range.
Edit:logic fixxored
Last edited by Regret on 02 Feb 2009, 18:23, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Holy crap, I agree with Gota.Gota wrote:result of a lack of good players in the community...
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
This addresses the entire OTA vs BA air dynamic very well.Gota wrote:I rally hope newbies aren't reading this forum thread and taking notes..
What are you taking about ARGH?
In OTA people rush air and bombers..IN OTA,air is much more powerful than in BA.
Sure BA Static AA is shit except missile towers and maybe kbot AA t1/t2 but comnapping and combombing is so prevalent only because OTA AA,except flaks,shot both ground and air while ba AA only shoots ground thus appearing only after the enemy has air instead of before it.
Missile towers were a common defensive building(a bit too common).
they shot Both air and land units which meant they were everywhere,thus doing any maneuvering around enemy defensive lines with a transport was much harder than in BA...
Noobs make this issue even harder to deal with.
The only reason This com issue is coming up now is cause there are hardly any good players that can actually counter it properly and that's why regret gets all this infamy...
IN OTA rushing air was fine.
Bomber rush was/is very common because all air units can be microed to be very effective.
Air in BA is very hard to play with at start and as a main battleforce since Air cons are so weak in terms of buildpower..
All this silly comments you guys are making (no offense but you don't see me making comments about pure,even though I haven't played a single game of it,and if i do,feel free to point it out) are just a result of a lack of good players in the community...
The less good players the more bad players will be making comment that will be left unanswered and this will leak into balance of future versions..
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
In BA, all static AA defense & t1 mobile AA defense absolutely sucks on all levels.
Re: Balanced Annihilation V6.81
Solution, find a way to block Commander being transported in the first 8 minutes of a game..
LUA?
The whole combomb thing in early teamgames is pretty ridiculous, and when done by a good player its a massive hit to the enemy's chances for recovery.
If you can get a commander on the ground close to the enemy's factories in that early game (first 10 mins), there is almost no way to stop him, T1 units get raped by commander and Dgun, and players can't afford the firepower to counter a Commander that early either.
If a Combomber manages to wipe out a few factories, even if that commander eventually dies, the receiving team is still screwed even with that 2500 Metal from the com corpse.
The receiving team is so far behind in buildtime it takes to remake labs, power, mexes to recover what was lost, that its almost a guaranteed loss for the game.
The only real counter is to try to run one of your own commanders to intercept and Dgun the combomber, losing that player any metal he had stored above 300, all his energy, and all the buildpower he could have had if his commander was still alive.
Something needs to happen to fix it because there are so many easy ways to get an Atlas and a commander past AA as AA is expensive in BA and mostly ineffective at deterring a comdrop or combomb as you can't get it setup in strength fast enough.
LUA?
The whole combomb thing in early teamgames is pretty ridiculous, and when done by a good player its a massive hit to the enemy's chances for recovery.
If you can get a commander on the ground close to the enemy's factories in that early game (first 10 mins), there is almost no way to stop him, T1 units get raped by commander and Dgun, and players can't afford the firepower to counter a Commander that early either.
If a Combomber manages to wipe out a few factories, even if that commander eventually dies, the receiving team is still screwed even with that 2500 Metal from the com corpse.
The receiving team is so far behind in buildtime it takes to remake labs, power, mexes to recover what was lost, that its almost a guaranteed loss for the game.
The only real counter is to try to run one of your own commanders to intercept and Dgun the combomber, losing that player any metal he had stored above 300, all his energy, and all the buildpower he could have had if his commander was still alive.
Something needs to happen to fix it because there are so many easy ways to get an Atlas and a commander past AA as AA is expensive in BA and mostly ineffective at deterring a comdrop or combomb as you can't get it setup in strength fast enough.