Sure. Right now, as things stand, the economy takes long enough to go truly exponential that it's not a big factor until late game. With the "closers"- the Tier 3 stuff that's designed to end a game- in play, it's hard to see how people are going to have a point where it doesn't just come to a screeching halt due to changes on the battlefield.
For example, now that the UltraAssault can't be built right off the bat... it was OK to make it as powerful as it should be, which is to say that it's a very angry piece of hardware. Let alone the Overlord, which you will have nightmares about, if you're playing Resistance.
There are other things that can be done, and will be done, if they're necessary:
1. I could just put in a fiat limit on MMs, so that you can only buff your economy by a certain amount.
2. I could use a Gadget to introduce a diminishing-returns curve.
Haven't done either, because I honestly don't think it'll be necessary, but I'm certainly open-minded about it.
P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Moderators: Moderators, Content Developer
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Guessmyname
- Posts: 3301
- Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 21:07
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
...sorry, what just happened? All these traps and minitexts and wha-huh? What?
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Stop polluting Argh's thread with nonsense and giggles.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
I'm all about the diminishing-returns approach, as long as it's really clear to the user. Bombard them with annoying text if you have to.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Played out another massive gameplay series with DRB last night.
Changes made:
1. Maxim Artillery is now Tier Two. Tier Three made it impossible to reach the Maxim before ArtilleryCannons were available to move up the board.
2. Significant lowering of costs for Resistance's secondary economy. It now scales better, although further testing will be necessary to ensure good play.
3. After many tests, it has been decided to eliminate metal / energy Reclaim as a feature, giving each side metal / energy for objects.
It was always problematic in OTA, it's very problematic in P.U.R.E., given the density of objects in the world, and the goal to build reasonably realistic environments. Alternative methods of handling tasks like clearing lanes of fire are still being explored, but will almost certainly be Lua-based.
4. Experimental balance for the Resistance's new units, the Heavy Weapons teams. These will be units that are put into emplacements or buildings, giving Resistance an early-game defensive boost to provide them with better options in terms of attrition vs. cost (i.e., expect them to do a number of Overmind assaults that aren't using effective micro).
5. ArtilleryCannon has had multi-range ability removed. It may return in a nerfed format, but it was felt to be too much like a Punisher battery from OTA, only more efficient on time-cost, and we did not believe it worked as a gameplay element because of turret-creep.
6. LightMechs have had their shields removed. They were too effective against certain opponent classes during early game, because of the weird way that Spring's shields work. I may be replacing them with a Lua method that performs more correctly.
7. Radar Installations have increased radar LOS.
8. HeavyMech and UltraAssault hitpoints buffed again. HeavyMech weapons damage increased. Both units were working less effectively in the tier environment, where significant defenses could be used to stop them.
9. Finally got to rest how decisive the new MortarTanks are, in some detail. They're a very decisive end-game unit, deployed behind a screen.
10. Buff of damage output of ArtilleryCannon is on the table.
11. Strategic Plasma Cannons have had their buildtime increased greatly.
12. Resistance BikeTanks have both had their hitpoints raised. BikeTanks with machineguns make excellent LaserTank counters.
Overall, it's starting to feel a lot better in terms of defense vs. offense. Defenses can hold for cost, and if fronted with mobile units will require using proper tactics to defeat. Different opening tactics can have significant effects on early play.
The buildings are becoming significant parts of defensive play.
The biggest single issue has been getting both sides' economic balance to result in an equitable curve, while keeping the elements that are making the sides dramatically different in play style. The units roles and abilities, while not finely balanced yet, are starting to stabilize. The big issue is how much stuff players can have, and when can they have it.
With two very different economies, we've found that including resources from found sources is making it too hard to balance well- there are funky curves in output over time that just get too messy if people are able to harvest several thousand Materials from a map, even if we increased the time investment very significantly. The "money for free" meant that Overmind was able to tier too quickly, and that's a major issue in this game, given the current (not-complete) endgame tools available to Resistance vs Overmind- Overmind starts to really climb in offensive power once it has a fourth factory up, it's a major issue for the current balance, and while I think I may have gotten close to a fix, I won't know until next week.
In short, I love the two-econ system, I think it's fun and interesting, but it's been a beast to balance. I have a lot more respect for the StarCraft team's problems trying to get it to work reasonably well.
Just getting the ratios corrected and getting Ancient Facilities to produce competitive resources on a similar time-curve on any given map made for P.U.R.E. has been a big deal. I think that's finally addressed correctly, but it highlights the issues that I've been having with getting it to something like the balance you'd expect in a reasonably-complete videogame.
This week, I think I'm going to concentrate on the new models that we need for Resistance's last units, and maybe make some headway on map development, testing SpringMapEdit vs. World Builder to solve certain issues that are mainly cosmetic but would certainly improve the quality of the finished game.
Changes made:
1. Maxim Artillery is now Tier Two. Tier Three made it impossible to reach the Maxim before ArtilleryCannons were available to move up the board.
2. Significant lowering of costs for Resistance's secondary economy. It now scales better, although further testing will be necessary to ensure good play.
3. After many tests, it has been decided to eliminate metal / energy Reclaim as a feature, giving each side metal / energy for objects.
It was always problematic in OTA, it's very problematic in P.U.R.E., given the density of objects in the world, and the goal to build reasonably realistic environments. Alternative methods of handling tasks like clearing lanes of fire are still being explored, but will almost certainly be Lua-based.
4. Experimental balance for the Resistance's new units, the Heavy Weapons teams. These will be units that are put into emplacements or buildings, giving Resistance an early-game defensive boost to provide them with better options in terms of attrition vs. cost (i.e., expect them to do a number of Overmind assaults that aren't using effective micro).
5. ArtilleryCannon has had multi-range ability removed. It may return in a nerfed format, but it was felt to be too much like a Punisher battery from OTA, only more efficient on time-cost, and we did not believe it worked as a gameplay element because of turret-creep.
6. LightMechs have had their shields removed. They were too effective against certain opponent classes during early game, because of the weird way that Spring's shields work. I may be replacing them with a Lua method that performs more correctly.
7. Radar Installations have increased radar LOS.
8. HeavyMech and UltraAssault hitpoints buffed again. HeavyMech weapons damage increased. Both units were working less effectively in the tier environment, where significant defenses could be used to stop them.
9. Finally got to rest how decisive the new MortarTanks are, in some detail. They're a very decisive end-game unit, deployed behind a screen.
10. Buff of damage output of ArtilleryCannon is on the table.
11. Strategic Plasma Cannons have had their buildtime increased greatly.
12. Resistance BikeTanks have both had their hitpoints raised. BikeTanks with machineguns make excellent LaserTank counters.
Overall, it's starting to feel a lot better in terms of defense vs. offense. Defenses can hold for cost, and if fronted with mobile units will require using proper tactics to defeat. Different opening tactics can have significant effects on early play.
The buildings are becoming significant parts of defensive play.
The biggest single issue has been getting both sides' economic balance to result in an equitable curve, while keeping the elements that are making the sides dramatically different in play style. The units roles and abilities, while not finely balanced yet, are starting to stabilize. The big issue is how much stuff players can have, and when can they have it.
With two very different economies, we've found that including resources from found sources is making it too hard to balance well- there are funky curves in output over time that just get too messy if people are able to harvest several thousand Materials from a map, even if we increased the time investment very significantly. The "money for free" meant that Overmind was able to tier too quickly, and that's a major issue in this game, given the current (not-complete) endgame tools available to Resistance vs Overmind- Overmind starts to really climb in offensive power once it has a fourth factory up, it's a major issue for the current balance, and while I think I may have gotten close to a fix, I won't know until next week.
In short, I love the two-econ system, I think it's fun and interesting, but it's been a beast to balance. I have a lot more respect for the StarCraft team's problems trying to get it to work reasonably well.
Just getting the ratios corrected and getting Ancient Facilities to produce competitive resources on a similar time-curve on any given map made for P.U.R.E. has been a big deal. I think that's finally addressed correctly, but it highlights the issues that I've been having with getting it to something like the balance you'd expect in a reasonably-complete videogame.
This week, I think I'm going to concentrate on the new models that we need for Resistance's last units, and maybe make some headway on map development, testing SpringMapEdit vs. World Builder to solve certain issues that are mainly cosmetic but would certainly improve the quality of the finished game.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Did StarCraft really have a two-econ system though? They had the same systems for resource acquisition, and the same build-time for structures. The only difference was how (and where) structures were built... and since the cost of a drone was rolled into the cost of the Zerg buildings, that effect was negligible. To me, the only economy thing that looked hard to balance in StarCraft was the silly hatchery/larvae system against the more conventional unit-factories of the Protoss and Terrans. The combat looked to be the hard part to balance (particularly the early-game rush and drone/scv/probe combat), not the economic models.
I think PURE has a more challenging problem, particularly since overmind and resistance rely on completely different resource sources.
But yeah, I like the idea of removing the reclamation economy, simply because it differentiates the game further from TA, and reclamation economy is a HUGE part of TA gameplay.
I think PURE has a more challenging problem, particularly since overmind and resistance rely on completely different resource sources.
But yeah, I like the idea of removing the reclamation economy, simply because it differentiates the game further from TA, and reclamation economy is a HUGE part of TA gameplay.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
i don't know the current state of defenses, but IMHO there shouldn't be any t2 and t3 defense structures unless you want porcfests where people just try to mass enough units to get through in one go.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
I'd say that porc isn't an option for either side- in playtests, if you don't build mobile stuff, you're hosed. Overmind has an end-game option to build SPCs, but they're expensive on time and resources, so it's like building Bert / Tim was, in OTA- a risk strat that gives players a game-ender, if they aren't countered. The rest of the defenses are nasty, but all have practical counters that aren't that hard to get or use. I've done a few things, like speeding up the Maxim so that it's no longer like waiting for a glacier to melt, that will help with these issues.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
A little video I threw together, just playing around with a WIP version of the Overlord in-game. Just an early test, should not be taken as gospel yet.
Raw WMV (high bandwidth) here.
YouTube here.
ModDB here. This one's still pending, you might want to wait an hour or two.
Can't wait to get better shader support working, this game's going to start looking really good.
[EDIT]Oops, mis-spelled "surveillance". Ah well, it was late.[/EDIT]
Raw WMV (high bandwidth) here.
YouTube here.
ModDB here. This one's still pending, you might want to wait an hour or two.
Can't wait to get better shader support working, this game's going to start looking really good.
[EDIT]Oops, mis-spelled "surveillance". Ah well, it was late.[/EDIT]
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Gnomre put random sleeps on the start of our infantry's walk scripts, which means that when you order a number of them to move at once they don't move in a disconcerting lockstep, but out-of-sync. I think it looks a lot better that way, I recommend including it on those!
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Hey, that's a thought. I'll get to that when I'm done with the secondary mode stuff later.
Oh, and I just picked up 45 minutes of new music. Yay, I think I'm done with that part of it.
Oh, and I just picked up 45 minutes of new music. Yay, I think I'm done with that part of it.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
There are moments where the overlord mechs are moon walking, and their walking tends to be faster than the actual speed of the unit making it look a little strange and undoing the suspension of disbelief.
I like the idle noises they make you hear towards the end as they go about their business.
I also believe there are better cameras you should use that give smoother panning and scrolling, trepan IIRC made one specifically for cinematics though it might have been someone else, not sure.
One idea, when those units stomp and the ground shakes, make the trees shudder and the buildings give off little specs, like glass from shattering windows or bits of rubble falling.
I like the idle noises they make you hear towards the end as they go about their business.
I also believe there are better cameras you should use that give smoother panning and scrolling, trepan IIRC made one specifically for cinematics though it might have been someone else, not sure.
One idea, when those units stomp and the ground shakes, make the trees shudder and the buildings give off little specs, like glass from shattering windows or bits of rubble falling.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Holy crap that looked cool. Too bad about Spring's jittery camera, though.
One really obvious problem - the fact that those mechs keep their guns parallel to the ground is really ugly considering they spend most of their time shooting at stuff at their feet.
One really obvious problem - the fact that those mechs keep their guns parallel to the ground is really ugly considering they spend most of their time shooting at stuff at their feet.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
nice! but camera needs some work - for the next movie, do either static camera or /viewfree.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Meh... for the next movie, I'll probably make an early copy available to people who actually know what they're doing. I hate making movies, tbh. I just was playing around with that WIP stuff, saw that moment where the Godzilla stuff finally started working, and decided it was too cool to sit on.for the next movie, do either static camera or /viewfree.
LOL, that's just the soundtrack. I could give them those sounds for giggles, though, or do similar stuff, that stuff is really easy to make, and it would certainly give them character.I like the idle noises they make you hear towards the end as they go about their business.
It'd look cool with nothing going on. Massive overkill otherwise, and CPU-devouring to boot, since that would involve a heck of a lot of Lua. Probably won't bother.One idea, when those units stomp and the ground shakes, make the trees shudder and the buildings give off little specs, like glass from shattering windows or bits of rubble falling.
Yeah, I will fix that, and I'll make the body able to turn. That's really bugging me, I messed up a step when I exported it. It's a 10-minute fix, I'll get to it here in a bit.One really obvious problem - the fact that those mechs keep their guns parallel to the ground is really ugly considering they spend most of their time shooting at stuff at their feet.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
Here's a quick WIP shot of the latest unit, one of the three that I need to get done for Resistance before release (along with a bunch of other stuff).
This is the T.R.O.L.L., a heavily-armed infantry transport. It can carry one full squad of Resistance infantry, or one of the Heavy Weapons teams.
Armed with a pair of machineguns for close support and a light cannon for engaging targets farther away, it will have enough armor to be useful for assaults, where T.R.O.L.L.s and MBTs and HeavyMechs can all be used together with fire support to make a hole in defensive lines, then the T.R.O.L.L. can drop off the infantry to hold the ground.
This shot doesn't really convey their scale, which will be pretty big. I'm just started skinning it, dunno if I have enough mental energy to finish it this evening, it's been a very long week.
This is the T.R.O.L.L., a heavily-armed infantry transport. It can carry one full squad of Resistance infantry, or one of the Heavy Weapons teams.
Armed with a pair of machineguns for close support and a light cannon for engaging targets farther away, it will have enough armor to be useful for assaults, where T.R.O.L.L.s and MBTs and HeavyMechs can all be used together with fire support to make a hole in defensive lines, then the T.R.O.L.L. can drop off the infantry to hold the ground.
This shot doesn't really convey their scale, which will be pretty big. I'm just started skinning it, dunno if I have enough mental energy to finish it this evening, it's been a very long week.
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Guessmyname
- Posts: 3301
- Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 21:07
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
It looks kinda overmind-ey with all the angles and the legs.
Re: P.U.R.E. 0.8 RC3
It would look better if it was a "super" tank