Balanced Annihilation V6.6

[[Krogoth86]]

Before this thread ends up in glorifying Caydr you also have to remember that especially later on lots of things got fucked up a bit because he listened too much to other people and lost sight of the mod and the way things should work together to his mind. At least that's what even today most people say - most reminiscential probably are the OP Weasels (although those probably are that much memorable as they were a blatant flaw in the last release which would have been fixed fast (at least I think so) if he would have had more time for AA which he didn't have and so it stayed for ages and created the cornerstone for BA)...

I agree though that BA's devs are a bit too passive in my opinion. Some details may be a matter of taste but some like the ridiculous Zippers which stayed untouched for quite some time shouldn't have been ignored for so long. Especially when certain things like the Annihilators stats start repeating things should be rethought. Not that no changes would make BA bad because it is very good no matter what some people might say - when there are good arguments for certain changes it would just make it even better. So in the end all we can ask for is a fair chance to consider what's being discussed. If that's already the case (which imo is for Noize although he lately seems to have very little time for BA) then everything is fine...

[Gota]

Well,Regret if you by any chance mean that my suggestions and thoughts a few pages ago were crazy or noobish than please enlighten me as to what is wrong with what i'm suggesting.

I dont know why Noize would ask you about Unbalanced units since you mostly play team games and its much harder judging balance when you playing a 8v8 DSD than when your playing a high level 3v3,2v2 and the best is obviously 1v1.

I would very much like to read what you have to say about my suggestions.

[Pressure Line]

Its not your 'suggestions' that people object to. Its the way you put it out there.

Seriously, take some time off. Find someone who speaks english fluently and get them to show you how to put things politely. just for starters I'll give you a tip: people are unlikely to respond well to being ordered to do something, and thats the way you come across (whether its intentional or not).

Try using "Noize, could you look into buffing merl/dippy aoe and movespeed?" instead of "Noize, merl/dippy aoe is too low, you have to make it bigger." See the difference? The first is likely to get a "Thanks, I'll look into it." the other is likely to get "wtf! who the hell do you think you are? gtfo."

Basically try to stay away from the "I must be right, so you must be wrong" mentality. Remember its all subjective, so what you think is an opinion, not necessarily the absolute truth.

[Regret]

I dont know why Noize would ask you about Unbalanced units since you mostly play team games and its much harder judging balance when you playing a 8v8 DSD than when your playing a high level 3v3,2v2 and the best is obviously 1v1.

You're being elitist, in 8v8 games you can see a lot more unit interaction than in a 1v1, thus getting a better idea of how things work in the game.

Well,Regret if you by any chance mean that my suggestions and thoughts a few pages ago were crazy or noobish than please enlighten me as to what is wrong with what i'm suggesting.

I would very much like to read what you have to say about my suggestions.

If you can present your suggestions in short, and clearly state what is wrong, and what you suggest to be done about it, then yea sure I will debate it.

Here's an example:
<your observed problem><space><minus sign><space><your suggestion><enter>
<enter>
<repeat>

[Gota]

I dont know why Noize would ask you about Unbalanced units since you mostly play team games and its much harder judging balance when you playing a 8v8 DSD than when your playing a high level 3v3,2v2 and the best is obviously 1v1.

You're being elitist, in 8v8 games you can see a lot more unit interaction than in a 1v1, thus getting a better idea of how things work in the game.

Well,Regret if you by any chance mean that my suggestions and thoughts a few pages ago were crazy or noobish than please enlighten me as to what is wrong with what i'm suggesting.

I would very much like to read what you have to say about my suggestions.

If you can present your suggestions in short, and clearly state what is wrong, and what you suggest to be done about it, then yea sure I will debate it.

Here's an example:
<your observed problem><space><minus sign><space><your suggestion><enter>
<enter>
<repeat>

#1 yes you can see more interaction in big games because T1 is very aggresive and not porcy enough or the T2 labs are not cheap enough for the T1 unporcy state.

That's just failed balance.It is not good balance when 95% of the time 1v1's end in t1 which consists of about 25% of the mod's units..

I explained the problems clearly in the last few pages.
I was not being elitist i mearly stated the ultimate test of balance is 1v1 because in 1v1 players tend to squeeze everything from the mod and it accentuates the unbalanced units much quicker and stronger.
If we agree on that fact we can than safely assume you will have a much harder time figuring out what units are under or over powered since you never play 1v1s.
This is not a personal insult.
Anyway i don't care anymore...if after i showed you all the numbers and the logic behind the necessary changes you still resist,whether it is cause i didn't sweat talk you enough or you don't care to examine the matter closely than i wont spend any more of my time here.
I have presented my case in the best way possible regarding the annihilator and stumpy-raider.

[Regret]

Anyway i don't care anymore...if after i showed you all the numbers and the logic behind the necessary changes you still resist,whether it is cause i didn't sweat talk you enough or you don't care to examine the matter closely than i wont spend any more of my time here.

Fucking finally, bye.

[Sleksa]

btw Sleksa..

The entire BA mod was stolen from AA when it first came out, where the only noticeable change was that solars no longer cost E to build and fixed Weasel balance, so this thing about popularity is a ridiculous statement when this mod was just a Theft all on its own.

Yes. BA originally was meant to be a *fix* to AA. If youre literate and have brains you can guess it from the name ~Balanced~ Annihilation

Regarding theft, youre wrong. BA had the approval of caydr , and it didnt name itself after absolute annihilation AA 2.11

However in gota' s situation , He didnt have the approval of NOiZE or day, and it named itself the new BA, which makes it a theft.

[Pxtl]

Caydr didn't fsck up because he started listening, he fscked up because he stopped playing and didn't have the time to properly, carefully examine the changes he was making. He didn't have the time to figure out the drastic effects his gameplay changes would have. Like the time he turned hovers into L1 units - it sounded cool to have a 5th tech ladder, but he didn't test it enough.

Likewise, when he finally listened to all the "vehicles suck" complainers and buffed vehicle speed/armor, he went so over-the-top that he not only killed kbot gameplay, but also killed defenses since vehicles could push right through defenses without blinking.

Old AA was marked by the fact that he included all the crazy shiat, but did it carefully. Later on he wasn't careful, and the gameplay suffered for it.

[el_matarife]

AA lost because he issued a massively buggy version then didn't bother to patch it for months. By the time he came back and issued a fix everyone had switched to BA.

BA isn't perfect but it is "Good enough" for the vast majority of players and Noize has a pretty good record of issuing fixes on a reasonable timescale.

[Sucky_Lord]

Sorry if this has nothing to do with your previous conversations, but i would like to say that i think rockos and storms need to cost more and take longer to build :) Get back to me on that 1 :)

[ginekolog]

torpedo bombers should really have sonar. They are quite useless without it as u cant forcefire with torpedos and its hard to allways mix in scouts.

[Regret]

torpedo bombers should really have sonar.

No. Would be overpowered vs water.

[Gota]

LOL.
How about a vulcan/buzzsaw that eat up 350+ metal per second to fire?
adding sonar to torp bombers is the least of BA's problems.

[Pressure Line]

LOL.
How about a vulcan/buzzsaw that eat up 300+ metal per second to fire?
adding sonar to torp bombers is the least of BA's problems.

it doesnt actually take the metal. the person who was saying that in main was using the "it takes 18kE/sec to fire, i could turn that into 300 metal" calculation. which is flawed at best.

[lurker]

Flawed at best? MMMs are nearly free and build a lot faster than a buzzsaw. The better hole to poke at is that that's only the max firing rate; the thing's very deadly well below it.

[Pressure Line]

if you are building vulcans (which in terms of metal costs are worth 310 flashes or 40 bulldogs) I sincerely doubt your economy is in any sort of strife.

[Gota]

Still though there is no doubt those 2 are not practical units except in cases where metal and energy are very easy to acquire and what matters is build speed and the amount of say,the micro needed to place a few nanos and a Vulcan one near the other and let it build and shoot automatically,compared to the amount of micro needed to manage different units in the same resource range.
The ebst example of such a map is speedmetal.

But do you really balance a mod based on speedmetal?

[smoth]

the vulcan cannot move, being able to not be in the same place that your enemy points his large missile is a big +

[Pressure Line]

The ebst example of such a map is speedmetal.

No game (not one based on map resources and basebuilding) EVER should be balanced based on what happens on Speedmetal (and/or its variants)

The "300M/second" is an opportunity cost btw. If you use that M & E to build anything other than MM and Fusion it 'costs' you per second, because combat units don't fuel your econ, but those combat units make you stronger relative to your opponent. enabling you to... you know... WIN.

[Gota]

I didn't say it should be.
That was an argument against the vulcan/buzzsaw.