Balanced Annihilation V6.5

[Evil4Zerggin]

I wouldn't say amphs are necessarily UP--in particular, the Triton is almost competitive with the Bulldog in a straight fight, plus it has better slope tolerance. (I'd spam that shit in DSD north >_>.) It's just that you don't get a lot of choice with amphs in terms of what they can do. You only get small tank, big tank, and maybe a useful oddball, but no arty, AA, etc.

[thelawenforcer]

one goli actually gets raped by T1 units, as long as the guy with the t1 knows what he is doing (he should be trying to get his t1 units to hug the goli as it will then proceed to kill itself).

Golis as part of a balanced attack force, meaning, some scouts, some banishers and reapers with radar and jammer vehicles and you'll find that its very hard to defeat such a force...

[Evil4Zerggin]

Yeah, that's another thing: THE GOLI IS NOT A FRONT-LINE TANK. Sure, it may have 7k hit points, but that is a very expensive 7k hit points. Until late late late game, the Reaper should be the front line--not much less durable, and much less expensive (you can get two for the cost of a Goli, with plenty left over). What the Goli is is anti-swarm fire support. If the enemy spaem assault kbots, you build a few Goli, probably not more than two per front.

[Dragoon]

You are completely misreading the damage ouput stats. The Goliath cannon deals 900 damage but it only fires once every 3 seconds. The Warlord's plasma cannon deals 450 damage but fires every 0.5 seconds. The Warlord deals three times as much damage as the Goliath, and we haven't even counted the Warlord's laser cannon! The Millenium's cannons deal 300 damage per shot, but each one fires every 0.4 seconds for a combined output of 5 times the damage of the Goliath.

And you're forgetting that for the price of a single warlord, you can get 5 goliaths.
900 damage x 5 = 4500 damage
and 7000hp x 5 = 35,000 hp vs a warlord's 17,000 hp

The cost effectiveness of a goliath according to damage and hp makes it a far superior unit compared to the battleship.

The only valid point you've really got here is in ship versus hover balance, though even this is poorly made. You complain that hovers are too powerful despite their multi-role capability, and yet in the same breath deride the cruiser for having too little HP/cost compared the Bulldog despite the fact it's faster, has more range, deals more damage and can attack submarines.

The problem with your statement is you're not taking into account the cost-effectiveness, which is my entire point. A cruiser costs 6x more metal than your average hovertank. The cruiser has have far too little hp for a unit that costs a whooping 1800 metal to produce. By comparison, the sumo and goliath are both cheaper, and with 7000 and 14000 hp respectively.

[Pressure Line]

you are forgetting that a cruiser can do this:



And the Sumo/Goliath are the top-tier tech2 land units. the cruiser is not the top tier tech2 sea unit. you cant just pull the dps, health and cost values out, point at them and scream "ITS IMBALANCED"

srsly, how many times does a goliath or a sumo get to take a shot at a cruiser? you HAVE to consider more than the values of one unit vs another unit, in isolation it may seem imbalanced, but when other units are in play it becomes very different very quickly.

[Dragoon]

you are forgetting that a cruiser can do this:

And you're forgetting golaiths can do this:

And the Sumo/Goliath are the top-tier tech2 land units. the cruiser is not the top tier tech2 sea unit. you cant just pull the dps, health and cost values out, point at them and scream "ITS IMBALANCED"
srsly, how many times does a goliath or a sumo get to take a shot at a cruiser? you HAVE to consider more than the values of one unit vs another unit, in isolation it may seem imbalanced, but when other units are in play it becomes very different very quickly.

I'm not specifically comparing the goliath with the sea units - I was comparing the cruiser and ships in general to hovercrafts, and used goliaths as a point of reference to show how expensive the 'low hp/damage' sea units are relative to land units. I'm saying how the naval units are underpowered compared to land and hover units. Cruisers or even battleships will easily be swamped by far cheaper and cost effective hovercrafts...and that's even if they survive to tech that far.

[Evil4Zerggin]

By comparison, the sumo and goliath are both cheaper, and with 7000 and 14000 hp respectively.

The Sumo is not cheaper.

Also, remember that the cruiser is more than twice as fast as either of those two units and has longer range. If you're going to use cruisers you need to kite the enemy. If you want to fight them head-on, use vettes.

Battleship is more like fast artillery. A battleship would simply shell the Goliaths from out of their range.

[Pxtl]

Speed is very, very, very important in BA. That's what makes BA more intense than most other Spring mods. That's why Flashes and Gators rule. The ability to control a large portion of the map with a single force of units, rather than a divided army, is critical to survival.

Ignoring the speed attribute is insane.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

Speed... ...That's what makes BA more intense than most other Spring mods.

its either that or that next to nobody has played most the other spring mods

dragoon;
if your that passionate about game balance either make a ba fork noone will play, learn to live with massively op gollies that suck ingame or try one of the mods still under active development, like all the mods that arent ba

[Pxtl]

BA's econ is slower than many other Spring mods, but the frantic pace of the large swarms of fast-attack units I haven't seen in many other games. I think BA is as fast as you can get in an OTA-style game before it becomes too hectic to play.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

hyper balance annihlation coming soon

[Gota]

you are forgetting that a cruiser can do this:

And you're forgetting golaiths can do this:


can they do this:

[Gota]

DP

[Dragoon]

Battleship is more like fast artillery. A battleship would simply shell the Goliaths from out of their range.

This is not a contest between a goliath and a battleship. This is a contest between their usefulness in certain situations. For the metal cost of a battleship, building 4 goliaths or 8 heavy tanks is more cost effective.

Ignoring the speed attribute is insane.

Hovercrafts are about the same as ships in terms of speed, and are more cost efficient.


The point I'm trying to make is that ships need to have more HP and their cannons also need to be slightly stronger...and with a decent blast radius too. The current cruiser/battleship cannons have a rather small AOE damage.

@Gota- lol

[Pxtl]

You were comparing boats to Golis, where the speed attribute is quite relevant.

Even if I agreed with the problem (which I go back and forth on), the solution you propose is most definitely wrong. Naval units are already terrifying in shore-bombardment scenarios. Boats _do_ fight land units sometimes, and they utterly crush anything other than land-based artillery that gets anti-naval bonuses.

IF there is a problem with hover balance, I'd say either remove their torpedo immunity or just give them an across-the-board nerf. Buffing boats is not the answer.

[[Krogoth86]]

@Dragoon:
Still a battleship is fast enough to actually "run away" from hovercrafts which is one of the reasons you'll utterly fail at attacking someone who has reached T2 sea with your pretty hovers. If that person really has NO room to roam around in he's doing it wrong as porcing on sea is quite stupid and most of all expensive and except for T2 torpedo launchers every defense structure will die to enemy ships in no time. Well that's not entirely true - there might just be not enough sea to really pull that tactic but on the other hand that person still is doing it wrong as going for ships would be stupid anyway in that case...

In 95% of all games on maps like Small Supreme Battlefield (as it came up here) domination of the sea makes you the winning faction. That's also why I think that map isn't that much of a hover only map as with that small ground connection in the middle you have an area which all enemy ground units have to cross and you can bombard with your ships. Your Goliaths would be pure waste here - you could consider donating the metal to your enemy immediately here. With T2 missile ships you also can wipe out an entire coastline without breaking a sweat...

So in the end ships are nowhere near the level of underpowerment where you put them to. You might talk about some specific stats that might need to get tuned a bit but overall it's fine. Hovers are rather good at T1 because a sea player has to defend against subs, hovers and air which can be quite a struggle and as said can decide your defeat after a very short timespan. But once the sea player reached T2 the situation turns over and if done correctly it's nearly impossible to push a sea player back when operating from ground especially as hovers won't be able to hit the advanced eco apart from tidal farms...

[Pressure Line]

But once the sea player reached T2 the situation turns over and if done correctly it's nearly impossible to push a sea player back when operating from ground especially as hovers won't be able to hit the advanced eco apart from tidal farms...

in which case they probably have UW fusions anyway, floating MM may get hit, but only if the sea player is asleep, in a coma or dead. but if they are i that state, they are probably going to lose anyway.

[Dragoon]

You were comparing boats to Golis, where the speed attribute is quite relevant.

I was not comparing them in an actual fight. Comparing a pure land unit to a pure sea unit in a one on one fight would not make sense. I was comparing the Hp-Damage-Cost ratio.

I was comparing the hovercrafts to ships in an actual fight.

Your Goliaths would be pure waste here

That's mainly because small supreme has that narrow landbridge which is a chokepoint for land units.

But once the sea player reached T2 the situation turns over and if done correctly it's nearly impossible to push a sea player back when operating from ground especially as hovers won't be able to hit the advanced eco apart from tidal farms...

That's if they even reach T2. 9/10 battles between hovercraft and navies I see involves hovers swarming the navy and over running the naval base. So the naval player needs to be quite lucky to even survive past naval T1, and then somehow find enough metal to build the exorbitantly expensive T2 ships.

[ginekolog]

comon dragoon, learn to play first then moan about balance. To kill hovers as seaplayer:

1. make 1-5 T1 sealabs, assist em with 4 con each and spam corvetes. In fight just ram corvets in middle of hover mass. Easy.

2. At T2 cruiser will also demolisih hover, just dont ram them but keep em at bay. Cruiser do 350 DPS, hover 80.

3. Make gunhips and kill hovers as their AA is quite bad (and should stay that way)

4. Make your own hover mass Sea has hardest to kill eco.

[Teutooni]

I was comparing the Hp-Damage-Cost ratio.

Sea is fundamentally different from land - you cannot compare only hp-damage-cost in a meaningful way.

somehow find enough metal to build the exorbitantly expensive T2 ships.

One thing you should know about sea is their massive buildpower. Each t1 builder is almost as fast as a commander. Also, tidal strengths are usually very high (20-25), providing a very cost effective energy economy. On top of that, sea metal makers are more cost effective than land ones.

I was comparing the hovercrafts to ships in an actual fight.

Problem is, few players know how to play sea. They build a few tidals and barely any metal makers, then spam destroyers like they were stumpies and torpedo launchers like llts. ~~

Spam econ, spam vette. A few subs as a wild card. Destroyers are artillery, use them to harass land and engage torpedo launchers at max range.